A conversation with an expert communicator who has served the Assembly of First Nations, Mastercard Foundation, and the CBC.
How do you bridge the gap between knowledge and action when it comes to reconciliation? In this episode of Ampersand we hear from Don Kelly, an experienced communicator who has served the Assembly of First Nations, Mastercard Foundation and the CBC in his long career.
Don highlights the importance of supporting Indigenous-led innovation and the continuing gaps in public awareness regarding Indigenous issues. He and Caitlin delve into the role of media in reconciliation, the challenges posed by misinformation, and the benefits of incorporating Indigenous knowledge in education.
This season of Ampersand is dedicated to the 10th anniversary of the TRC and explores its lasting impacts. Through conversations with Survivors, scholars, and advocates, this season reflects on the progress made since the TRC’s final report and Calls to Action, while also addressing the challenges that remain.
Watch the interview on Youtube.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email media@emdashagency.ca with any questions.
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Caitlin Kealey: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast, helping good people be heard and comms people be better. Thanks for joining me today, Don. It's good to see your face.
Don Kelly: Oh, great to be here, Caitlin. Thanks for having me.
Caitlin Kealey: Can you share a memory from your first computer or early days on the internet?
Don Kelly: First computer, uh, I remember dad got a, uh, one of the early desktops, very clunky. And one of my first memories is playing, at the time, a state of the art video game. You talk about dating yourself, uh, Dr. J versus Larry Bird One-on-One with blocky pixels, green on a dark background. Caitlin, that was virtual reality.
I was Dr. Jay or occasionally Larry Bird. I, I dunked a basketball in the, in the virtual sphere, whatever that they call it these days. Yeah, so I remember playing that early video game. Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think they released a, a 2024, 2025 version yet.
Caitlin Kealey: Oh. There was no follow up. That's so sad.
Don Kelly: That's right. I think the computer went out of date. So no follow up.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, yeah, I mine, I remember Nintendo games where you had to blow, like, blow the, the game so that it worked before you put it in. Yeah. Those were the days. My kids don't know our struggles.
Don Kelly: Well, we can go back to Tinker Toys and Kerplunk and all of those as well too.
So that was fun. That was hands on fun.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, my kids would have no idea what any of those things are.
Don Kelly: That's sad. That's just sad.
Caitlin Kealey: All right, so shifting gears a bit, 'cause it's the 10 year anniversary of the TRC this year, and, um, we wanted to get communicators in to talk about some of these issues and obviously you've had a long, a long history with, you know, the TRC and then even before that with other, other such things, comms and, you know, Indigenous reconciliation.
Um, have you seen communications change since the TRC? You know, has there been improvements? Uh, are there places where we're falling short?
Don Kelly: Well, the first thing is, is as you know, as well as anyone, the whole sphere of communications has changed.
It kind of connects to that first question about, you know, there's no internet back then. You had to find different ways to reach people, fax machines, if, uh, kids Google fax machines, if you wanna find out more about that. But there was a, especially when it comes to Indigenous people, where connectivity is still — unfortunately and really it shouldn't be — an issue. But, uh, uh, you know, there's been the whole change in the communication sphere in general with, with, with social media, with the internet.
But I think in terms of communicating about Indigenous issues, about Indigenous people and with Indigenous people, I guess if we're looking at the, uh, the good and the needs work categories, I think the good is: definitely more awareness — and here I'm talking about the Canadian context amongst Canadian people — I think about some of the issues and all of this, you know, almost everything you say when you talk about Indigenous people and issues has to come with a big caveat of still lots more work to do. It's not like, oh, we're doing good on that and we can, we can rest now and move on to the next thing.
But definitely more awareness. You know, you see that in public opinion polls. We're, we're never near the top, but at least there's some awareness. Uh, but I think it's a little shallow too, when you know things like there's economic issues. Like we see right now, people are, you know, rightly worried about their quality of life, about, you know, uh, taking care of their families.
Our issues tend to slip down, but there, but there's more awareness. And I think if we look at the needs work category, the big thing is, uh, people really still aren't sure of the direction forward. And I think that's in some ways, um, you know, in spite of the good work of things like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, you know, it's so many people still aren't aware of the 94 Calls to Action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
They're not aware of the 231 calls to Justice of the National Inquiry to Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, or the 107 calls to economic prosperity of the National Indigenous Economic Strategy, which together with a lot of other good work is really pointing a way forward.
And I think one of the dangers there is when people are aware of an issue but they're not sure what to do, they tend to move on to something that they think, well, you know, on this issue, I, I can make a donation or I can join a march, or things like that. So I think there needs to be much more communication on the path forward, which to me, if you have to summarize, it's about really supporting Indigenous led innovation because it works, it succeeds and it's good for everybody.
So that's, I think, where there needs to be, uh, more work and more effort.
Caitlin Kealey: That's a great answer. Thank you. I, uh, Indigenous led innovation, and I mean, Indigenous led, you know, everything basically in terms of when it comes to finding the solutions, um, journalism obviously has played a big role in the awareness for public.
You know, there was hundreds and hundreds of stories about the TRC throughout the maybe thousands. I would say thousands actually. Um, you know, but sometimes it's part of the problem. Uh, but during the TRC, it was also part of the solution. Um, from your point of view, uh, what is the media's role in all of this in reconciliation specifically?
Don Kelly: Well, you know, I recognize as a, uh, as a recovering journalist, and I say that with all love 'cause I did enjoy my time as a journalist back in the day. Um, uh, first of all, you know, we all need to respect that they want independence, that they want the ability to tell the stories that they see. So I think as, um, someone now working in communications, uh, we want to, you know, help point them in what we feel are the right directions, recognizing that, that they're going to do the story, but really help, um, provide the information, the background, the context that's going to be helpful, uh, in, in telling that story. I think, you know, journalism is where most non-Indigenous Canadians get their news about Indigenous people.
Uh, I would include social media in that as well, uh, for better and for worse. Uh, 'cause there there's a lot of good information and a lot of misinformation out there as well.
Caitlin Kealey: Mostly for worse these days, I fear.
Don Kelly: Well, the, the algorithms, we definitely need to be mindful of that, which really means all of us need to step up, whether, whether you're a journalist or a communications professional, because you know, you have to be a counterbalance or ideally a counterweight to that, to, to, to get people pointed in, in the right direction.
So I think journalism, there is a role to play, but I, I think there are some steps they could take. And in fact. Um, the truth and reconciliation commission final report does, uh, provide some actions towards media specific more to CBC and APTN. But I think there's lessons, um, that can be taken there for a lot of media.
I mean, I think one really basic thing is get more Indigenous people across all levels of the system. From reporters to producers, to technicians to HR, just, just the more you get Indigenous people involved in these systems, the more you're going to get greater awareness and, and better information.
Uh, I think as well, you know, all journalism schools, um, should include curriculum related to Indigenous people and history because the context needs to be there and there's been some work on decolonizing journalism. And in fact, you know, I've heard stories of reporters who try to provide some context and, you know, I, I'm, I really wanna be sensitive in this whole interview about some of the heavy subject matter we might be talking about. I don't wanna sound cavalier about it, I think it's really unfortunate, but it's the truth that Canadian history when it comes to Indigenous peoples comes with a trigger warning.
So I'm trying to be sensitive, but you know, if you hear of someone going missing, journalists have tried to put some context into their story. Um, or, you know, maybe a, a brief reason of like some systemic reasons why this happens. They'll sometimes get accused of, oh, now you're being an advocate. When in fact if you don't get that context, you're really not getting the full story as to why this isn't a one-off, why this, this seems to keep happening.
So I think that real and that is part of the story, that's not being an advocate, that's part of the facts, that's part of the history that people need to understand. So I think those are really, um, important things for a journalist and communications people to be, to be mindful of. Um, Duncan McCue has a great book and I don't own, I don't own any shares in his publisher, but it's [laughter] decolonizing journalism, I think, whether you're, you're a journalist or a communications professional and really al- almost anyone would, would benefit from, um, uh, from reading that book. But in particular in journalism schools, I, I think there's a real need that to do that.
I think the last thing I'll say in that, uh, question, Caitlin. Because I'm reminded when I talk about Duncan McCue, he has a program at Carleton now, and we're seeing more of these as well, which is actually reaching out to Indigenous youth in hard to reach or remote communities to give them some, uh, opportunities to, to learn journalism.
And they may go on to practice it, they may not, but it gives them very practical skills. But it's a way, uh, you know, to reach those populations that, uh, that aren't always easy to get to and give them a voice. Because I really do think our voices, our stories and our ways of telling stories, uh, will really benefit the profession.
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's not about sort of, um, uh, a, a unique or special way of just looking at things that really would benefit, um, uh, the way that stories are told and communicated.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. Uh, we were lucky Duncan graciously made time for this podcast, so he will also be in this season. Talking specifically about that, um.
Don Kelly: You got the connections.
Caitlin Kealey: Oh yeah, I just pick up the phone, Don.
Don Kelly: Your Rolodex, which, which in our ongoing theme of young people googling some of these terms.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, I, uh. I think I would be lost without my phone 'cause I do not have a Rolodex anymore.
Don Kelly: Me neither.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, speaking of like education and, you know, the importance of sort of the context piece, it's interesting.
I've never heard that people like journalists are getting accused of adv- advocating when they're using facts, but that I shouldn't be surprised anymore. People are jerks. Um, this growing talk about bringing Indigenous knowledge and ways and beings into classrooms and lecture halls. Um. From your perspective, what's working and you know, what's still missing?
Don Kelly: Well, you know, I'm not an expert in Indigenous education, but I've certainly, you know, um, done a lot of work 'cause education is so important.
It really is. I think, uh, one of the keys to unlocking, uh, the full potential of this youngest fastest growing population in the country. I think what I've seen working is, um, a few things. One is, first of all, getting Indigenous people, including Indigenous young people, like embedded into the institutions of learning. Not just Indigenous institutions, I'm talking about any university, uh, like into the governance, into the, uh, strategic direction, uh, in, into finding better ways to support students Indigenous as well as others.
And where you see that happening, you're seeing new perspectives being brought forward, and you're seeing innovation and changes to the system that again, are actually succeeding. It goes back to, you know, if, uh, if your mantra is people are jerks. I'm kidding. Gabe. Mine is support Indigenous innovation because it works and it works for everyone.
Um, it supports Indigenous students, but, but it also, um, brings changes about that really support, um, for, provide supports for, for a lot of people. Uh, so I think really, uh, having a real safe. Not just the committee that you asked to report or, or do up a, a, a briefing note every, you know, every six months or whatever.
But our, but having a real say in the governance of the institutions is important. I think the other thing is supporting education, uh, much more support in Indigenous communities, uh, which means a couple things. One is dealing with the funding disparity. Where, you know, you have federal policies that say, uh, you know, a library may or may not be, uh, in, in the school.
Um, there might be a computer, but it might be one computer, uh, that everyone shares. I don't know how in 2025, let alone in 2010, you know, anyone could say, well, computer education really isn't that, that, that essential to, uh, to anyone's education. So really dealing with those disparities.
But as well, the other, I think I would turn the question around as well and say part of it is getting, uh, education out of the, um, lecture halls at universities and into Indigenous communities, which is there are innovative things going on right now. They're supporting the, the current system, but also community learning hubs in Indigenous communities that can provide quality university education in communities through internet connections.
And you have these learning hubs, which are essentially, you know, they have all the resources that a classroom would have, and students don't have to leave their home community to get that education. They don't have to deal with the practical things like, okay, I need a job so I can support myself. I need to find accommodation that I can afford.
I need to figure out bus routes so I can get to my job and get to my classes. I need childcare. In some cases, they have all the supports in their community, and more than that, they're surrounded by their languages. By their cultures, by their elders and knowledge keepers, by their ceremonies. They don't lose that, uh, when they go to the city as well, and they can come up with a quality university education strong in their identity.
So there's really innovative things like that going on as well that I think really need to be looked at, at, and, and, and supported.
Caitlin Kealey: That's really exciting. And yeah, I think part of the problem is always that, you know, residential schools pulled people outta their communities and moved them to places far, far away.
That's caused all sorts of disconnect.
Don Kelly: Absolutely. And, and, and that's another move that's happening now is more on the land learning, which a lot of people who aren't familiar with it might think, oh, that's good. They can learn about the environment or the soil and the plants and there is that. But as well, you can use on the land learning for everything with um, sort of, uh, non-Indigenous teachers, but as well elders and knowledge keepers.
You can learn about history. You know, you can learn about science, all different kinds of science. You can learn maths and, and, and languages. It's just, it's, that's your classroom right there. And that goes back to more, um, uh, the ways that, uh, we used to work when people talk about Indigenous ways of knowing and being.
Um, so there's a lot of interesting things, uh, happening that I think can be scaled up and supported.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, you alluded to misinformation, and I like that the idea of you need to be a counterweight on social media. Um, given that misinformation is everywhere, uh, and unfortunately ugly, uh, rearing its ugly head in Indigenous rights and history online, what actually works when it comes to reaching the broader public with the truth?
Don Kelly: Well, I know Caitlin, you and I have talked about this before. One thing that really concerns and disturbs me is the growing and more organized move around residential schools denialism. Um, you know, there's always been, uh, unfortunately in Canada, you know, going, going back decades, you know, there's always been the people who are like, well, my dad got scrap and he's okay.
He didn't need compensation. But we know, well, I like to think, well, we know and hopefully more people know. It was so much more than that. Uh, it was so much more. But now you're seeing, uh, people organizing and really trying to change, uh, change the reality of what happened in the schools. And a lot of it is, uh, again, this is where Canadian history has a trigger warning.
So I, I don't, I wanna be sensitive, but a lot of them are using the unmarked graves to say, well, where's the proof? Right? And it's a really, uh, disturbing, uh, sad, uh, to say nothing of angering response when someone may have lost a loved one in your first response is, well, I need to see a body. I mean, that's what it boils down to, and it, and it's that terrible.
And I think that's one of the things amongst all, a lot of the misinformation we see. I mean, first of all, that's how it can be received. Uh, and I think people need to be conscious of that. But the TRC itself said, you know, if we wanna step aside from that issue, you know, talked about, uh, uh, at least 6,000 deaths in the schools.
So the whole sense of using, uh, the unmarked graves issue as like, sort of, well, nothing bad happened. I mean, the reality is it's there. We, it, you know, it came out in the, in, in the 2000s about the medical school, uh, about the medical experiments, uh, that happened at the school.
So I think that's a really important area that needs pushback, uh, because you see this in other, Uum, you know, uh, similarly tragic situations as people get older, uh, you know, as, as we sadly lose survivors and even people who just bore witness or worked at the schools, it, it gets easier, uh, to push this stuff. So I think it's really important that, uh, it be a mission for, for everyone to educate others and educate themselves.
Now the way I think this connects to your question is, this is difficult subject matter to talk about. I think we need to find ways, for example, we talked about curriculum. There is good work underway to start introducing these subjects at an age we don't wanna traumatize, uh, young children.
But the problem is, you know, I've always said there's more — I believe uh — more ignorance in Canada than, than than racism. And by that I don't mean ignorance in the pejorative sense of, oh, people are are dumb. It's just, I know when I grew up in, and I went to a, a school in Winnipeg, didn't learn anything about, uh, about the First Peoples of this land. Maybe a little bit that there were people here when the, when the newcomers arrived, and then I don't know what happened, but now here we are in the situation we're in.
So I think that we need to find, uh, creative and sensitive ways to introduce you the history, to talk about the history. And I, I think as you know, if you're trying to push back on this. One thing I found, you know, is, is you want, um, discussions that resonate emotionally, but, but that emotional resonance has to be based on the truth and the facts because when people are actually take the, take the time to listen and learn, they, they often go, “Yeah, yeah, I can, I can see how this wasn't right and how this, how this really needs to be addressed, how this wasn't just.” And I think part of the problem is, um, you know, so many Canadians feel we're, we're in such a wonderful country, the beacon of human rights, that it, in some cases it, it, it offends their, their sensibilities, which creates, uh, another barrier.
I think young people are much more open, uh, to questioning, you know, received wisdom or, or reality. Uh, again, for better and for worse, but I mean, they are open to, uh, to sort of, um, learning, uh, learning the truth and, and then how we go forward, uh, based on our, our, our past. And I think as well there's a lot of opportunities for, for, for journalism, uh, you know, to, to address these issues.
I think as well, I would encourage people to as well look to the creative arts, uh, which is another outlet, uh, where people can be reached, whether it is watching some of the amazing television series we have right now, uh, going to plays, uh, various movies, go to comedy shows. There's a huge Indigenous comedy community in, in, in Canada right now.
You go to almost any city, they've got an Indigenous community and what I love is whether it's comedy or theater, you know, you're going to hear discussion of the Indigenous issues and history. You know, you're also gonna hear people talking about their family. You know, their foibles, uh, travel food, going out with friends, and you're gonna realize, okay, there's not this massive gulf, this, this, this huge divide.
We actually have a lot in common, uh, once we realize, we, we learn about each other. And the last thing I'll say is, you know, there's a lot to be angry about, and anger certainly has its place, but I've always found as much as possible if we can build bridges that helps as well. I mean, that creates a, a common understanding.
Whereas, you know, we're all people. I, I, if someone just yells at me and berates me, I'll probably start to tune out and I may just even, you know, turn off and, and, and walk away. So, um, with respect to where we, where we should be angry, um, uh, I view it's collectively angry. You know, let's try to like, like build a, a bridge of understanding based on, you know, our, our, our, our shared knowledge of, uh, of the history and the way forward.
Caitlin Kealey: Sort of in that vein, like thinking about building bridges, I mean. I get asked regularly so I imagine you get this question too, but like as communicators, like how can we help? What can I do? Um, so do you have a, do you have a, a thing you tell folks, uh, when you get asked for advice on how they can like lend their support to reconciliation?
Don Kelly: Yes, I say attend my workshop, which is, uh, at a reasonable fee. No, I'm kidding.
Caitlin Kealey: I was like, really?
Don Kelly: I, I don't do workshops just in case anyone's wondering. That's, uh, although I, I would happily do one. I would happily do, but you know, that does get to, um, one point, which I hadn't really intended with that.
But one, one point is I do know, um, some of my, uh, First Nations, um, friends who are really, you know, a lot of them will say, you know, I'm done answering questions. You know, I don't wanna be, I'm tired of, you know, do your own work, you know, figure it out. And I always think as a communications person, okay, if you are being asked to do a workshop or you're being asked to give a talk or you're formally being asked to speak, yes, you should absolutely be recognized and compensated for the work involved.
But if someone just asks me a question, you know, that's a great opportunity. I mean, obviously they want to learn more. So I do think, you know, we should always try to keep those channels of communication open. The other thing I would say is, and I, I think I, this is not any tremendous great insight, but, you know, do some of those like, like read, if you can't read the whole Truth and Reconciliation Commission report, read the Calls to Action, read some of these other reports, um, a lot of, there's a lot of good communications materials and this is things that, you know, communications professionals can be supporting, is the creation of, you know, concise materials that, you know, recognizing not everyone's gonna read a, you know, like the Royal Commission was like a a six volume report. Not everyone's gonna read that. Well, there's a popular version, you know, that's much more condensed.
It's about a hundred pages. The National Digital Economic Strategy has a two pager that, that, that covers its highlights. So I think there's, uh, very accessible things that people, um, should be looking at, uh, to get, uh, to create their own understanding. We also, of course, need to be visiting, uh, Indigenous communities, attending events that, that are being put on by, um, uh, Indigenous organizations, learning more about it.
Um, so there's so much that, that, that we can be doing that doesn't require, uh, a tremendous effort. But all of it is about exposing yourself, um, to, um, to the issues, to the, the current realities and, and learning about them, the, the path forward for all of us.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, education is key to most things we would, I would argue. Um, so did you bring your crystal ball? 'Cause here's the last, our last question, we do it for to, for all guests. Uh, so we're 10 years out from the TRC. Where do you think we're gonna be in 10 more?
Don Kelly: By pure coincidence, I don't have my crystal ball, but my, uh, I have my wife's Taylor Swift tarot cards right for the interview, and they're just for fun.
I'm not, uh, advocating any anyone's spirituality.
Caitlin Kealey: What does, what does Taylor say?
Don Kelly: Well, the card reading will cost extra, but, but I'm not, I'm not equipped, uh, to do it. Uh, it's interesting. I was, um, in two, I was at the apology in 2008 for the residential schools delivered by, uh, Prime Minister Stephen Harper, attended by representatives of the National Indigenous organizations.
I was, I was literally on the Hill. They had big screens set up. And, um, uh, people, we can, uh, criticize it, we can embrace it. It's really up to every individual, uh, in particular the Survivors to decide how, how they receive it. An apology is not mine to accept, uh, on anyone's behalf, but I was mindful of it.
And, um, I know a number of people thought it was a day that would never happen and an apology compels action. So it certainly wasn't the end of, uh, what happened, which then, you know, when I was at the Assembly of First Nations in 2020 is when the, uh, Indigenous Child Welfare Act was passed. And so here we had an apology for what was essentially, you know, taking children, uh, damaging the parents, uh, damaging the children seriously damaging the, the language and culture, uh, on top of the other assaults, uh, that we saw and that were, uh, documented by the, by the TRC towards a move to really, um, create approaches for Indigenous people to take care, uh, of their own children.
A lot more work needs to be done. I always say that's the context for almost everything I say. It certainly didn't feel like a completion 'cause even, uh, even then the Child Welfare Act, there's much more work to do on, on child welfare. Uh, so when you ask where will we be in 10 years, um, it's of course hard to say.
Um, I am the most cynical optimist you'll ever meet. Cynical, but—
Caitlin Kealey: Love it.
Don Kelly: — an optimist ultimately. Uh, and where that optimism comes from though is from the Indigenous young people, um, that I see here work with, read about, uh, their energy. Uh, it, it's truly inspiring given the challenges, um, what they're doing to, to reclaim, uh, their languages, their cultures, their identity with full support and with full outreach to, to their elders and knowledge keepers. That's much, uh, a growing movement, uh, as well to assert themselves to assert Indigenous led approaches to education, to clean energy, to the environment, to employment and training, to child welfare, to everything.
Um, that's what gives me hope. And I think all Canadians to should look to that and really support where they can. As we've been talking about, uh, Indigenous led innovation, uh, in particular from Indigenous young people who are doing amazing things across the country in spite of the challenges.
Uh, I think that's, that's what gives me hope that we will be further along, um, in the move towards reconciliation. 'cause the other thing that's people need to be aware of this is the youngest, fastest growing population in the country. This is the future of our country. This is the future for all of us. Economically, politically, culturally.
It benefits all of us to be supporting young people through education, uh, and on and onto, uh, you know, uh, the, the livelihood that they want, uh, to pursue. You know, the National Indigenous Economic Strategy says if we, uh, bring Indigenous levels of education and employment up to the Canadian average we add $27.7 billion every year to Canada's GDP. So we should do things not just for the bottom line, but for people who may not be as engaged or maybe you know, only thinking of their own quality of life. While the bottom line is that supporting Indigenous led innovation is good for all of us. It's an investment in our future that brings back massive dividends.
And again, it makes up for a stronger country, not only economically, but culturally, politically, and really gives us all the country that we can say, uh, is doing the right thing that is working towards reconciliation. Uh, that is a more fair and just country for all of us.
Caitlin Kealey: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us.
For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at emdashagency.ca and follow us on your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by Megana Ramaswami and me, Caitlin Kealey, and it's produced by Elio Peterson. This podcast is a project of Emdash, the small agency focused on big impact helping progressives be heard.