Right wing talking points are bleeding into Canada from south of the border — here’s what people here can do to push back against it collectively.
Populist rhetoric and right wing talking points have been migrating north of the US-Canadian border since before Trump’s re-election. What can us Canadians in the for-good space do about it?
In this episode of Ampersand, we sit down with Fae Johnstone, the Executive Director of the Society of Queer Momentum, to discuss strategies to bridge the rapidly widening political divide.
Fae draws on her experience as an award winning, stubborn powerhouse trans activist, challenging governments and institutions at all levels to address the multitude of crises facing women, 2SLGBTQ+ people and trans folks.
With a federal election on the horizon in Canada next year, it’s more important than ever to come together, hear each other out, push back and protect our democracy.
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Caitlin Kealey: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast helping good people be heard and comms people be better. I'm Caitlin Kealey, the CEO of Emdash.
Megana Ramaswami: And I'm Megana Ramaswami, Senior Strategist at Emdash.
Caitlin Kealey: So for this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Fae Johnstone, the Executive Director of the Society of Queer Momentum.
She was an absolute pleasure. She was super honest. She called it like it is. And my gosh, she is so savvy when it comes to talking about things that people don't necessarily want to talk about.
Megana Ramaswami: I know we are always huge fans of everybody that we have on this show, but Fae’s is a career that we have been following for a really long time at Emdash, and so this was such an exciting guest to have on the show.
So tell me everything!
Caitlin Kealey: You're right, it was. It's super great, and I think people will really enjoy this one. We talked about right wing talking points bleeding into Canada from south of the border and what people here can do to push back against it collectively. I also got the chance to ask her about how she sees the future of advocacy and media relations for 2SLGBTQ+ evolving, especially given the times that we now live in.
I'd want to mention that this interview was done pre US election, but now we're recording the intro after the election. And I've got to say that the timing on this topic seems all so much more salient given the reality of what is happening in America. And, you know, I think we all need to push back together.
Megana Ramaswami: I mean, after listening to this, it's a great episode for allies and you know, those of us that work day in and day out advocating for communities, but it's also a very important episode to remind all of us that it's only when we come together and, you know, employ these strategies collectively that we can fight back on the points that Fae will be talking about.
So let's get into it.
Caitlin Kealey: So we kick off with an icebreaker question, um, it sometimes dates folks, but can you share a memory from your first computer or early days on the interwebs?
Fae Johnstone: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I'm a military brat, which informs the beginning of my technological journey, I guess. Uh, and so our, I remember our first computer that sat, I think it was in like a living room in, I'm going to say Shiloh, Manitoba. Uh, Yeah, and it was just like giant, right? Like I still picture these when I think computer, like the monitor was like a foot and a half thick and my first video game was Age of Empires trying to conquer the world as a military brat is raised to do.
Caitlin Kealey: I had hippie parents, so I have never heard of that video game.
So to the slightly more serious, how did you get started in the work that you're doing at, you know, and doing all these important things.
Fae Johnstone: Uh, so for me it was, like, I like to say that I tripped into most of it. Um, I was, uh, starting, you know, I, it actually comes back to my own, like, personal story. Uh, when I came out of the closet in high school and had some adverse experiences, as every queer kid does, uh, I got real angry about it and started volunteering with my high school GSA.
And that actually spearheaded me into working with one of Canada's national queer non profit organizations, the Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity. And it basically just kept going from there. I realized that I love this work. I had all of these experiences that myself and my friends had gone through.
And I wanted an outlet to channel some of that anger, but also to do it in a way, uh, that could have an impact that could hopefully make life better, easier for the queer and trans kiddos coming after me.
Caitlin Kealey: So, you know, making, making the world better one step at a time. I like it. I'm digging it. Um, what excites you about the advocacy work that you're doing on behalf of your org?
Fae Johnstone: Uh, you know, I, I really think it is like seeing the impact, but you know, more than that, uh, you know, as somebody whose job is to, you know, be in the public eye and to be connecting with folks on the ground across the country, I get to see the incredible local work that is being done, right? That extends from, like, the mom who is speaking up and making change for her kid in small town New Brunswick, uh, to the church minister in Fernie, B.C., uh, to the gays and theys and transes causing good trouble in our big cities.
Seeing the work that they're doing and being able to uplift it and to bring those stories forward and to see how those stories can change hearts and minds, uh, that fills me up like nothing else. And I would say that the second piece to that is actually the opportunity to bring our lovely, feisty queer and trans ideas and values to spaces that maybe haven't heard our side of the story.
I've spent the last couple years doing a lot of work with the labour movement in Canada, and labour is a huge champion on queer and trans issues. Um, but speaking with everyday workers, you know, the factory worker, the farmer, the bus driver, hearing their stories and being able to talk to them in a way that they can relate to so that they can better understand their queer and trans peers and siblings in the labour movement.
And so that, everyday work, it actually keeps me grounded to be doing those two things, chatting with community members and hearing their stories, and then trying to bring those stories and that analysis to others in our progressive movements to build that unified movement that we need right now.
Caitlin Kealey: It's funny every time we do this podcast storytelling comes up.
It's such a like, how do you tell put the human face on the thing? How do you like use stories to like engage folks? So it sounds like there's a lot of similarities in that work and finding common ground, uh, is obviously super important, important, especially, you know, on issues that people may not be as comfortable with and bridge building is obviously key in that too.
Uh, I'm curious, has anything surprised you in a good way? About the people that you've met along the way. I mean, it sounds like you've kind of met some of everybody,
Fae Johnstone: You know, I think in this time, you know, one of the struggles we have is, you know, there's a million fires and the world is in crisis. And a lot of folks in my world are scared, right?
Like, we're seeing government regression and so we're getting our fists up and we're ready to fight. Um, and sometimes I think that we lose sight of the fact that, uh, we both have and can actually change hearts and minds. Um, just a few days ago I was hanging out at the Canadian Labour Congress's, like, Canada Council, and there was a mechanics union rep in that space.
And not to, like, stereotype a mechanic, but they're not often the folks who we imagine as, like, front lines of queer and trans movements, right? Uh, and just to see that, you know, we actually can reach these folks. That we can build that empathy. Um, I think in this world we get caught, and my world in particular, has got caught in a lot of lingo and language.
We have our cis heteronormativity and all of those like deep theory framings. But it's realizing that we can actually reach folks that we would never imagine could hear from us and to see that they want to understand, that they want to learn, and that they see a shared struggle in what we're going through and what they're facing in their own communities.
I think that has been the most, like, incredible thing to witness, is just that there is a way to bring everyone in on these conversations. And a lot of the time it means just, like, letting that human connection happen, because that relationship is, like, the foundation that all of that change rests upon.
Caitlin Kealey: For sure, yeah. I mean, human connection is hopefully and surely the key to most, solving most problems. Um, Can you talk a bit about some of the strategies that you've used to engage policymakers in the advocacy work that you're doing? I mean, as we know, I would imagine that some people are a little more hesitant to come to the table, as it were, for being polite.
Fae Johnstone: Absolutely. You know, I think it depends, you know, across the political spectrum. There's like a, we receive different kinds of receptions in different spaces. Um, and I think a lot of our work has been trying to help folks respond to the misinformation and the polarization coming from our opposition that wants us to see folks who disagree with us as our opponents rather, again, than folks that we have yet to make friends with or build that relationship with.
And so a lot of our approach has been helping folks do that work, to connect with their member of parliament, with a candidate, uh, to help build that relationship. Uh, and to use storytelling to do it. And then at the same time, I think it's, it's building the, the broad pressure that we need to, to make wins happen.
You know, we've spent the last decade or so under a liberal government. And that government often describes itself as a big champion and ally to queer and trans people. Uh, and there's two sides to that. One is, yes, they have done more on queer and trans issues than arguably any government in Canadian history.
On the other side of that, it is less than we need. It is often, you know, symbolic or tokenistic approaches. And so in those contexts that we win by helping them hear the stories from their constituents, helping bring those voices forward and apply some good political pressure so that we're praising the good things, but always pulling for the kinds of investment and support that we need.
And that dance is hard to do. I have sometimes been very critical of this government. Um, and also, you know, want to praise the work and then make sure more of the work happens. Um, and so building those relationships with parliamentarians with members of their teams, but then also helping bring up the voices of others has been our way forward.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, I mean, it's a fine delicate balance. I think in many different social equity kind of conversations, but I feel like the trends and 2SLGBTQ+ is, sort of, it feels like it's more present in everyday conversation, which is great, but it's obviously also got the downsides to it because there's a lot of misinformation out there.
Um, what sort of resistance have you seen in the work that you're doing with established organizations? Changing systems is hard. It is a hard slog. It doesn't happen overnight. Uh, there's a lot of people you've got to, sort of, convince that change is good, people inherently hate change, uh, so can you talk a little bit about some of the resistance?
Fae Johnstone: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think we've, if I think about this like from a national lens, let's say, um, first I think it's recognizing there is an opposition lobby that is trying to stop us from doing all of the good things, right? And they are a lobby that is unfortunately extremely well resourced, uh, that doesn't have to be as mindful of, you know, communication, inclusion, equity and diversity as we do.
Um, and they've, in this context, they've largely got us on the back foot and that creates a tricky environment. And so I think I would actually come back to the same piece, it's like telling the stories and helping us like respond to some of the lies and the misinformation coming from our opposition. Um, and then lifting up the right voices, right?
When our opposition is saying that they are the voice of parents, uh, despite how dishonest that framing is, it is strategic and powerful to bring forward the voices of parents who have trans and queer kids. who are speaking to the real impact that these policies will have. And often, you know, if I'm a conservative MP, I likely am not chatting all that much with queer and trans people, unfortunately.
And I often see the headlines and hear the slogans coming from the opposition lobby, and I don't always understand the direct impact. So for example, like if I'm a member of a legislative assembly in Alberta, um, I probably instinctively imagine that parental rights are a good thing. But if I hear from a parent who says, you know, I'm now scared to put my kid on the bus to school in the mornings, I'm worried he's going to get bullied more than he was last year.
Or I have to think about if my family can stay in this province because my kid needs access to this evidence based care from a physician that our government is actually about to ban. And so helping folks understand that and to see the real impact of the policies or rhetoric they're putting out into the space.
I do think helps change hearts and minds. The flip side then is, you know, building the pressure so that, um, they don't engage in these dog whistles and rhetoric. And we see, you know, most of these politicians, I don't think loathe trans people, at least I hope not, uh, they're playing a game themselves.
They have this social conservative base they need to keep happy. Um, and they see that engaging in this anti-queer and anti-trans rhetoric, um, they gain more than they lose at the moment by doing so. And so for us, the response to that is, um, holding them accountable and painting that picture as we see, you know, conservatives compromise on their own values.
And that's one of the big things that I think needs to be pointed out more. This is a conservative, you know, conservativism, uh, historically has been a fan of small government supporting families traditional values. And now we see conservative politicians and premiers with policies that would interfere in the private medical decisions of Canadian families, uh, that would, uh, invade our privacy through, you know, the creation of some sort of a test to determine who is woman enough to go to a shelter or use a woman's bathroom.
And so we are seeing these governments and politicians who talk about freedom, uh, be hypocrites on that very subject. And so pointing that out, helping folks see that they're playing a game here that is actually a departure from the values they say they care about. That, in my mind, and as we're seeing, um, you know, shifts the conversation back to what matters most to us.
And that's politicians who deliver on healthcare, affordability, and housing, who bring us together and unite us and that people actually want that unity in the face of the divisive and fear mongering agenda that we're seeing at play right now.
Caitlin Kealey: That's really fascinating. I don't know that I've ever heard it put so eloquently and so straightforward that they're literally, conservatives are kind of pulling against and pushing against their own roots as a political party.
Let's talk a little bit more about politics because I feel like there's probably a, there's a, there's a big discussion to be had in our short amount of time around, um, You know, Trump, Trump territory and right wing tactics from the U. S. that I feel like they're seeping in, but I'm curious to hear what you think about how, how south of the border is changing the discourse.
I imagine you think for worse, but I will let you talk to it.
Fae Johnstone: Oh, absolutely. You know, the Trump effect is real. It is here. And, and you're seeing conservatives adapt and look to, um, what's being used in America. Um, I think even beyond just like the, the adaptation, um, that, you know, conservative parties and politicians are making, I think there's a piece here around like the shift in their base.
Right, so if I think of conservatives traditionally, they, they often would fall into one of two camps to, you know, paint a broad brush. You got your like fiscal conservatives, then you've got your social conservatives. And I think something we're seeing that Alberta shows a great example in, uh, is the infiltration of this new stakeholder base.
And that is like the far right. Um, they are not necessarily coming from the fiscal conservative or the like, you know, Bible carrying old guy stereotype of social conservatism. Um, but they're engaging in conservative movements and exerting great power and pressure. They're often leveraging social media and this like whole ecosystem of far right media to do it.
Uh, and that is putting conservative politicians in a bit of a bind. You know, in Alberta premier Danielle Smith's case. I don't envy her the situation she's in because she is premier of a province. But she's likely the most precarious premier in the country, because she needs to appease this Take Back Alberta crowd, who are very similar to the, like, die hard Trump supporters in America, who are coming in with a very, you know, specific agenda and a very specific politic.
And they're building power and conservative movements to influence and pressure politicians. And so I think that's a bit of the struggle we've seen within the Republican Party, where you have your like old school Republicans going up against or in a tricky situation with this, like, new form of right wing organizing, um, that is then, you know, putting them in a bind, where do they support Trump, do they not support Trump, there is, and then they, you know, have to make a call, and often it is, like, we're going to get on that bandwagon.
And so there's that whole, I think, like, right wing movements have changed quite radically. Um, and then the, like, politics of division and fear that comes from that is obviously at play in Canada, you know? You see Pierre Pollievre using, you know, QAnon adjacent conspiracy, World Economic Forum stuff, like, all of that shows, you know, a willingness to have a, you know, a distant relationship with the truth and to say whatever needs to be said to rabble up your base.
And even if it's not factual, to tear into the government of the day and create this sentiment of fear, of anger, of distrust in our institutions. And as we're worried about seeing in America, we know where that leads for democracy.
Caitlin Kealey: Cole's notes: nowhere good. I mean, I think you and I would both agree that the Conservatives are going to be finding themselves on the wrong side of history.
You know, it's certainly on these issues specifically. Do you think that they realize this is a losing strategy? Is there a way to communicate that with them? Like, can you save the Conservatives from themselves?
Fae Johnstone: Um, I hope so. You know, I, I hate to, like, praise a former Conservative leader. And I usually wouldn't, but like I miss the days of Eric O'Toole, uh, right?
Like I miss the days, like, I would not want him as Prime Minister, um, undoubtedly, but I would rather him than anything we're seeing from conservatives today. Um, and so I think the struggle is You know, politics breeds cynicism in a big way, and Pierre Pollievre, like, he's known what he's been doing for a while, like, he is a career politician who has refined his approach quite well, and so there is, like, you gotta give credit where credit is due, he is a painfully brilliant communicator, just like his counterpart, Premier Smith.
But I think their goal is to get elected and to gain power and stay in power. And unfortunately, that means they're not thinking about what their approach, what their agenda means for the health of Canadian democracy in the broader sense of the word. And that's where I get worried. I think that when you're dead set on coming into office, and we're seeing Conservative MPs echoing Pollievre’s rhetoric, because they know that power is something that is in the bag for them or getting closer to being in the bag.
And so my worry right now is I'm not seeing that resistance. I'm not seeing those voices who might be like folks I disagree with, but who might have like reasonable disagreements with. I'm not seeing, you know, middle of the road conservatives or folks who are outside of this MAGA kind of chamber that they're creating here in Canada. I'm not seeing those folks speak out.
And so I think it is then, it's about everyday people doing that instead. You know, seeing that, like, choosing not to be divided is actually a conscious choice that we can and in this moment need to make. And as I'm saying to my people all the time now, a lot of that is actually about getting off of Instagram, getting off of social media, and chatting with your neighbor.
Chatting with the, you know, the construction worker, chatting with the mom who has concerns about what's going on in our schools. And seeing the humanity in them, just as we ask or invite them to see the humanity in us. My favorite piece is, I think when we do that, we actually will change hearts and minds and win the argument.
Uh, because it takes the polarization out of it. And most moms, most dads, most parents, want all kids to grow up in healthy environments where they have the freedom to be themselves. And where parents play a role in that space, of course. So we actually have a shared outcome. We just have to, you know, inoculate ourselves against the polarization of the black and white thinking that is the mainstay of Canadian conservatism in 2024.
Caitlin Kealey: Also, I adore, you keep just, uh, giving me my, my, like, moving on from conservatives, let's talk about voters. You've already done that. Um, but what I was going to say is that Emdash we've been, um, you know, given that we're going towards an election at some point, um, and the outcome’s not looking rosy, uh, for those of us who work in social change and social justice, um, you know, we've been doing a lot of, um, sessions for, for our clients and our friends around the topic of making the conservative case for progressive ideas, because, sadly, I think we're, we're in a world where that's becoming increasingly, uh, important.
Um, how do you think advocates should be connecting with right leaning audiences? I know you've just said, you know, one on one conversations, but that's an awfully slow roll. Uh, the country's quite large. So do you have any other, uh, strategies you might suggest?
Fae Johnstone: I say this with great love to my own people and to fellow social justice warriors, but Lord Jesus, we need to leave some of the condescension and elitism aside.
And that is actually, like, I say that as somebody who, like, comes from that space. I have a master's degree, I'm a social worker, like, we are taught and we are raised to, like, use the big words and the language. And we're also taught to do it in a way that doesn't invite new people into our movement. One of the struggles I see right now is, like, the QAnon conspiracy pipeline treats you like family.
They don't care about your hot take on this issue versus that one. They will welcome you in and give you a hug. Whereas it does often feel like coming into lefty spaces, there's like an unwritten test that you need to pass, and you need to keep passing it in order to be welcome in that space.
And so I think, you know, we have seen that impact, um, across, you know, left wing organizations, and I think our tone has shifted over the last decade as we felt like we were winning, quote unquote. And so, you know, part of it is, like, it's a fundamental shift in how we do the work. It's getting back to shared values. It's getting back to what do we want our future to look like, not just like those folks are the bad guys and they're dangerous, but Um, but I love a vision of Canada where families from all kinds of communities can live in peace and harmony together.
Where, when your family's struggling, you have good public services there to keep you safe and supported. Um, where we have health care when and where we need it. And so we need to speak to those, that shared vision, um, and part of it is recognizing, if a farmer is having a hell of a time keeping his farm in business, and putting food on the damn table, me coming in with the like, you need to morally care about those trans kids over there, that's not necessarily a fair way to approach it.
And so I have shifted my approach in the last few years from one that is like, everyone needs to care about these trans kids, to an approach that builds those bridges, right? Like if you're a farmer, if you're a factory worker, if you're a mom or a dad in a small town, we know that life is getting harder and we know that we need to speak to where you're at to build something bigger here.
I keep saying we're not going to win the trans rights fight by making it all about trans people because there aren't enough of us and we can't expect everyone to like know everything about trans books. I don't care if you know. What trans means at this point, what I care is that you see the humanity and dignity in me and in my community and that we recognize the opposition is trying to turn us against each other so that they can gain power and that that power will not be used to deliver good things for you and your family.
It will be used to dismantle our public health care. To weaken our human rights infrastructure, to weaken the unions that help those factory workers get the wages that they deserve. And so a lot of it is, we have to be smarter, we have to be more compassionate, and we have to be more in conversation with folks across that spectrum.
And it's not just the everyday advocates, it's our organizations building those bridges and investing in that movement building and that everyday conversation infrastructure to get us through this.
Caitlin Kealey: Speaking of the future, what is the future of, of advocacy and media relations and communications?
And how is it evolving for 2SLGBTQ+ issues just to step slightly away from politics, but everything's political. So it's still a political question, but maybe political comms instead.
Fae Johnstone: Yeah, this is like, I think we've seen, you know, to just like. To understand where we are today, I think we have to understand what's, like, happened to most of our non profit space in the last 20 years.
Um, many of our organizations were founded, um, as movement organizations, as cause-based entities. And then as we won the big struggles, like marriage equality, uh, the right to vote for the gals, like all of these struggles, we won a lot of the big wins, right? And that, like, that is the truth of Canada today, is my list of legislative change priorities is actually quite short when it comes to gay folks and trans folks.
Um, but in that evolution, our organizations have often have also shifted to be primarily government funded and to do the everyday work of addressing, you know, material inequality. What that means is that today, I think we have less infrastructure and less capacity to organize in the ways that we did 20 or 30 years ago.
And so I think that is part of where a shift is needed. Uh, organizations, um, we need to be investing in and supporting grassroots advocacy. We need to be helping build movement infrastructure and think a little bit more like organizers again rather than, you know, grant funded project officers. And we need both.
And that is the critical piece, is like, we need the front line service for the gay kid who's kicked out of their home and we need the organizing that means that that kid in five years wouldn't be kicked out of their home because their family would support them and back them up. And so where we're headed, I think, is building that movement infrastructure again.
That's actually, you know, behind the, inside of the nice stuff that you see of us where I'm on TV yelling about Pierre Pollievre, uh, that is the everyday work, is connecting with organizers on the ground, with organizations, helping share these strategies around responding to the polarization agenda of the far right, uh, and helping invest in those everyday activists, those moms, those dads, those allies, uh, because they are the power of our movement, and we need to be championing and uplifting those voices.
And I think that is firmly our path forward. That is how we create an environment where queer and trans issues, um, aren't politicized, but where as well, the government comes for us, they know they're going to pay a political price, and they know that that's going to show, uh, at the ballot box and in the polls.
That is the kind of movement we need. One that you don't want to cross.
Caitlin Kealey: Yes. So going back to your hearts and minds and mobilization. Um, so we end every pod with the same question. So I'll throw it to you for the last word. If you had one piece of advice for somebody who wanted to do similar work to what you're doing, what advice would you give them?
Fae Johnstone: Find your people and build your team. Um, you know, this work is lonely. This work is scary. When you step into the advocate role you suddenly feel like it's your job to solve every problem. Uh, and I think it's powerful to remember uh, that this is a struggle we have been in for 50+ years, and that while we have been winning change doesn't happen overnight.
And so we win by building, organizing power, and by building the teams that make the magic happen. And not everyone's gonna agree with you right away. And so helping do that work of building coalitions. Um, and realizing that we all have a different role to play, like doing those things all at the same time is my best advice to get into this and to build the kind of movement we need for tomorrow.
Caitlin Kealey: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us.
For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at emdashagency.ca and follow us on your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by Megana Ramaswami and me, Caitlin Kealey, and it's produced by Elio Peterson. This podcast is a project of Emdash, the small agency focused on big impact helping progressives be heard.