The President of First Nations University of Canada shares how Indigenizing education is a pathway to Reconciliation.
In this episode of Ampersand, our CEO and host Caitlin Kealey sits down with Jacqueline Ottmann, President of First Nations University of Canada, to discuss the ongoing process of Indigenizing education.
Jackie shares her firsthand experiences with the impact of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) on Indigenous communities, and the transformative steps taken by First Nations University of Canada to integrate Indigenous knowledge systems into their curriculum. The conversation delves into the importance of truth-telling, reconciliation, and the systemic changes needed to support Indigenous students and faculty in higher education. Join us for an insightful and hopeful discussion on the future of Indigenous education and reconciliation in Canada.
This season of Ampersand is dedicated to the 10th anniversary of the TRC and explores its lasting impacts. Through conversations with Survivors, scholars, and advocates, this season reflects on the progress made since the TRC’s final report and Calls to Action, while also addressing the challenges that remain.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email media@emdashagency.ca with any questions.
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Caitlin Kealey: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast helping good people be heard and comms people be better.
Thanks for joining us today, Jackie. I'm so happy to see you, and I'm very, very excited to hear about your thoughts on these topics. But we start every podcast with an icebreaker question, which we joke, uh, very regularly, that it's basically to date you. Can you share a memory from your first computer or early days on the internet?
Jacqueline Ottmann: Yes. Well. The first computer that I used was to write report cards because I was a classroom teacher and we didn't have a computer at home. There was, uh, there were computers at the school, but the school that I was working at during the time was 50 miles out of Calgary. So. I travelled downtown to my husband's office and worked there late at night to use the computer.
And so that was, that was quite the experience and it was a really big deal when we finally had and bought a computer for our home. And, uh, but when I went into the master's program at the University of Saskatchewan, um, yes, I did go into the university to use computers there, and I remember the printers, like they had, not separate sheets of paper, but you know that continuous rule they used to have?
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. Where you had to like pull the sides off after it printed? Yep.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Yes. And it was like the, the dot, I'm not sure what they called it.
Caitlin Kealey: I think there was a dot matrix maybe.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Exactly a dot matrix for the, for the printer. And, uh, and then you'd rip out the, the sides and tear it apart. And there was, there was my paper,
Caitlin Kealey: it was very labor intensive.
Jacqueline Ottmann: It was labor intensive and, um, but it, it was magical at the time. Right. And, uh, now it's amazing at how technology has advanced. Over the years, and it's just so rapid and it's - technology is, is just evolving at such an incredible pace.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. And some communities are being left behind, which we, uh, don't talk about enough, I think.
But
Jacqueline Ottmann: It's, it's, it's so true, especially when you're, when we think of rural and remote and Northern communities and the connectivity or non connectivity that they have, or sporadic connectivity. So, um, there, and, and it does impact the pace of, of educational achievements
Caitlin Kealey: a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Uh, so switching gears a tiny bit, I wanna, wanted to ask you about your memories of the TRC. I, Like, I, I didn't know you back then, so I don't know where you were or what you were doing, but I'm curious how, you know, what you remember from the TRC days and how that’s shaping the work that you do today.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Yeah, so I was at the University of Calgary when, when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission gatherings were, were being done. And, and actually even before that, when the commissioners were being chosen, I remember being very engaged in, in learning about who the commissioners were and, uh, the work that they were going to be engaged in.
And, and also the, the story behind the Truth an- Truth and Reconciliation Commission itself. Right.
And that it emerged as a result of, um, the survivors of residential schools and the compensation that the survivors, uh, were receiving. And a portion of that, of that compensation went directly towards the, uh, the establishment of a commission. And, and, and to just see the, um, all of the work that the commission was, was, uh, mandated to engage in.
And as I mentioned, part of that was to engage with the, with the community. And, and as a result of that, there were seven gatherings across the country that, that, that were identified and. There was a lot of anticipation in communities, and I remember that because for many survivors, it - there were stories that they never shared.
Um, stories about their experiences in residential school and my motion, my grandfather went to residential, residential schools in two of them, actually. One in Gordon's, uh, Gordon's residential school and then there was Elkhorn in Manitoba and he came back home. I think he was about 17, is what my dad said.
He left when he was about eight. So up until that point, his, his parents didn't allow him to go. And, uh, of course that was basically breaking the law at that particular point. So there were stories that I know that my, my grandfather just dealt with internally for years. So the, the national gatherings, um, provided a safe space for survivors and community members to come together.
And that was, that was significant. And as I said, I remember the, the angst and the, the opportunity that that was. Generated in community and, uh, the safe space included, uh, therapists that were there for the survivors and the community members. And my, my one auntie was, was one of those therapists that was there to support people in Saskatoon.
And, and I remember talking to her afterwards and she said, the commissioners, the three commissioners. Were supported spiritually during that time because the, uh, the stories were heavy and heartbreaking, and the people who shared stories during that time were also, were also supported by the. By the therapist and, and the elders who were there to be there for them, but the therapist didn't have that support.
And, and so my auntie was sharing her story about, about how she was impacted by, by those stories and also by the support that she was giving. Giving the survivors and, and community members. And, and, and so she had to ensure that she was, she was reaching out, um, for, for support herself. So it was, it was significant and as I said, it, it just impacted our communities in very big ways.
And, um, so much grief and. You know, it was the beginning of truth telling and it was cathartic. Um, for some people it was, it was healing or the beginning of healing because once that kind of horror reaches the surface, then there is, uh, the question of now what? Right? And so truth telling it, it can be, um, devastating.
And not easy. Um, but it is the beginning of, of something, right, and we hope that it is healing. I, I just clearly remember that time and, and asking myself or wondering, and hoping that this, this whole process would lead us to a better place. And, and so those seven gatherings, and I recall this, uh, lasted four years, I think it was from like 2010 to 2014.
And I did follow it along the way. And when the, the calls to action, the 94 calls to action were released, that was June of 2015. I was in Ottawa. So I was in the room, and once again, there was the. Uh, the anticipation. There was just a lot of, a lot of hope in the room, and, and it was, it was an amazing feeling to be there.
Caitlin Kealey: I was there too, and it was, I, I don't even know if I have the words to describe. The feelings in that room, and they ranged the whole gamut of feelings. And yeah, it was a very intense and important moment, uh, in history, I think. And I, I just remember being very, like, how did I end up here? But I am thankful that I am.
Jacqueline Ottmann: I, I felt the same way.
And I remember for some people it was just this huge sigh of relief. That here, uh, is a gift, 94 calls to action, to the community, to our society, to Canada. And basically that's, that's a roadmap for, for all Canadians to engage in reconciliation and uh, to consider. To really to consider how to, uh, where individuals and organizations can situate themselves within those calls to action.
And, um, the piece that, that I think we really need to hang onto and to continuously remind ourselves about is the story, right? And, um. In some cases we focus on reconciliation and drop the truth telling bit, and we forget that the commission and the calls to action emerged because of, uh, residential space survivors.
Caitlin Kealey: One of the most, I think, repeated quotes is around the importance of education. It got us into this mess and it will get us out.
Jacqueline Ottmann:Mm-hmm.
So with that in mind. You know, you're the president of First Nations University. How, how do you Indigenize the curriculum you're teaching? How do the perspectives sort of play out in the day to day?
I know that's a really big question, but you know, are there things that you think other folks should know about?
Jacqueline Ottmann: Yeah, so First Nations University of Canada began as Saskatchewan Indian Federated College in 1976. Yes. And so when you consider education getting out of this mess, that process was begun by Indigenous First Nation leaders and elders and visionaries in - well before 2015, and the calls to action.
And education has been identified as a value, a consistent value for Indigenous peoples. And as far back as the treaties, really, when you consider where First Nations University of Canada resides. And, and that's in Regina Saskatoon, Prince Albert. And we do have a, uh, traditional campus called nēwoskan so we're on treaty four and treaty six territories.
And within both of those treaties, education is identified as a value. So that goes as far back as 1876 and 1874. And in some of the research that we've engaged in, we learned that in 1910 there were a group of First Nation leaders that gathered from Saskatchewan and Manitoba to discuss issues that they would bring to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.
Thats who they were at that time in 1910. And, and so in 1911, there were four First Nation leaders that traveled to Ottawa on a one-way ticket by train to, to meet with, with INAC, uh, members of INAC. And, and part of the message that they were ad- , or part of what they were advocating for was for. Uh, first Nation owned and operated higher educational institution, and that was in 1911, and we have those photos.
So the story of this university began well before it became realized in 1976. And we're almost 50 years old. Next year we'll be 50 years old. So, uh, first Nations University of Canada has been working towards uplifting Indigenous communities for almost 50 years. Right. Well before, before the calls to action.
And a lot of work has been done, uh, before the calls to action. So, and, and that's important to recognize. Are those stories prior to the TRC and, and so now with, with First Nations University throughout the existence, uh, Indigenous knowledge systems have always been centered and it's foundational to the university.
Everything we do is guided by Indigenous knowledge systems from the teaching, the learning, the research, the governance, and our relationship with. With Indigenous communities, we're immersed in Indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing. Our students Uh, we have nine programs and within each one of those programs, our students are learning about that particular discipline from an Indigenous and a western perspective.
So they graduate with what you can call a two eyed seeing approach to their discipline. And they step into every sector of, of society. So our library also carries primarily Indigenous literature, Indigenous artifacts, um, microfiche, so. We have approximately 60,000 pieces of material, and that again, is, is microfiche, is it's, it's news, old newspapers.
It's it's books, it's literature that focuses on Indigenous topics, and that's over our three campuses. So students, our students have access to Indigenous content that, that many universities don't have. And we do have other universities that are, that look to our collections to support, to support the learning.
And, and so, you know, and that's Indigenous literatures and content from, uh, from North America, central America and South America. So it's, it's a, it, it's a very, very unique collection in all of our spaces, ceremony is ever present. Smudging is, is an everyday thing for, for some of our students, faculty and staff.
Um, we have elders that have, that make themselves a avail available to support our students. And so we, we do embrace our students in, in very holistic ways. And I would say that that is and has been the success of, of First Nations University is. That particular approach. Again, that is very much an Indigenous approach, and if you look at kinship structures, our, our kinship structures, we place students in the center.
The, our children are at the center of our kinship structures, and, and so we replicate that for our students at First Nations University of Canada and our learning again, you know, it’s many of our faculty really lean into experiential learning. And for our traditional campus, our students are there for cultural learning, language learning.
Elders, again, converge to, uh, to teach our students about the power of land-based learning and those experience they take with themselves, uh, into. Into the future, into the, into the workforce. So there's tremendous value for, for an institution like this.
Caitlin Kealey: Post TRC, we've seen a lot of people moving towards fill- trying to do their piece for the calls to action, and I think there's probably been some missteps along the way.
And, um, I'm just wondering what advice you might have for other educational institutions that aren't necessarily Indigenous on how to incorporate the learnings that you, you have taken and implemented, you know, on indigenizing. The institution per se. That's a huge question.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Sorry. It's a huge question, but it is a question that, that I've been, that I've been asked frequently, and it's really important for institutions to understand the Indigenous histories in the contribution of the Indigenous peoples to the development of of Canada.
And, and the unique positionality that Indigenous peoples have with Canada. I'm learning that there are people who don't know that Indigenous peoples are mentioned in the 1982 Canadian constitution and, and that there is a Section 35 that focuses on First Nation Metis and Inuit people.
So that's a, a legal, we we have a legal stance that that really communicates that yes, there's, there is intersectionality with, uh, equity, diversity, inclusion, accessibility, EDIA initiatives. But we are, we are unique within the Canadian landscape and, and so there's that kind of learning that. Uh, is is very important to educational leaders and to educators across, across the country and within the institutions.
Again, even though there is, there is more exec Indigenous executives within higher education institutions and there's a growing number and there's an increasing number of Indigenous strategies we have to consider The, uh. Systemic barriers and what are the systemic barriers within our institutions? In universities, we have university standards and, uh, those standards determine merit, promotion, tenure of faculty, among other things.
And, and so the question is, if you open those standards and if you explore those standards, what does it say about Indigenous, uh. Indigenous methodologies, Indigenous pedagogies, Indigenous service to community. And for a long time, Indigenous research methodologies have not been recognized or valued within universities.
And so with our Indigenous faculty and researchers, if they are hoping to, to be recognized in the merit and promotion and tenure year processes, you know, that is, is challenging. So over time, that has, has changed, but there are still, um, there's still a long ways to go in relation to perhaps collective bargaining, uh, agreements, CBAs and, and university standards.
So those are foundational documents to, uh, to universities. And once they recognize, uh, the unique ways that Indigenous faculty and uh, researchers engage in these areas of teaching and learning and research, then we're going to see more people, more Indigenous faculty, be successful in promotion, tenure, and yeah.And merit processes.
And of course once you support that, then you're also supporting Indigenous students. You're going to have more role models within, within the university and, and exploring again, the barriers, uh, for Indigenous students. And it's interesting that I'm still hearing, um, similar barriers from when I first entered university in the eighties, uh, from students today.
Right. So there, there are these, uh, persist persistent practices that, that lead to some students opting out of universities. So the, the change, um, has to be sustained over time and there needs to be resourcing, not soft money’s, but sustainable resourcing for, for some of these changes that are needed to, that will support our Indigenous students.
Uh, to program completion.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. 'cause there's things like childcare and like bursary or a tuition. Tuition only does so much. You still have to eat and feed and, you know, have
Jacqueline Ottmann: mm-hmm.
You know, your family taken care of to take time away from work and, you know, go back to university or go to school.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Ex- Exactly. And there are a lot of, um, students that are on wait list to, to go to university and that's. Those wait lists are, are in our First Nation communities. So there is, um, there's a lot of need and I think if we, if we, uh, come together to talk about how to, how to support First Nation and Inuit students also, again, there's, there are those barriers and Metis students are doing a lot better than First Nation and Inuit students.
So what are those pathways that we're creating from high school to university or the trades into the workforce? And we shouldn't have any wait lists within, within our communities. It does demonstrate the lack of, of post-secondary funding for our students, and that's a, a general misconception that First Nation students.
Get post-secondary education education for free. So there still is a, uh, a need to, um, challenge misconceptions and stereotypes because they also act as, as barriers for our students.
Caitlin Kealey: So you were the first Indigenous person, I guess, first first Nations person, uh, to become president of the Canadian Society for the Study of Education.
I'm just wondering in what ways you've observed progress from specifically on the TRCs calls to action within educational institutions.
Jacqueline Ottmann: The TRC calls to action was a, a bit of an awakening for, for Canada and. I would say it, it really opened the eyes of, uh, individuals and people within organizations about the, the role that Canada had in pressing Indigenous voice, Indigenous peoples, and creating barriers to universities because Indigenous people couldn't enter university or First Nation People couldn't enter university without uh giving up their membership to community. And, and as a result, there were people, first Nation people that chose, chose not to, not to step into post-secondary organizations.
Caitlin Kealey: Sorry to interrupt up until what year? Do you know when that was reversed?
Jacqueline Ottmann: That was the sixties.
Okay. So it was, it was very, very recent and there. There are First Nation people that, that are asking universities to apologize for, for their role in, in creating barriers and engaging in that kind of racist practice. And, and so with the, with the TRC and those particular calls to action. Those calls to action really do.
And again, there's the truth telling part of TRC and the calls to action are really there to, um, to create pathways to reconciliation. And, and so the, the bit for universities, the, the calls to action for universities are, are there as a, as a beginning. Right, and, and like anything, it's really important to consider how we can not only step into those calls to action, but really run with them.
And, and consider other ways to, to engage in, in reconciliation. And when I was, uh, the president of CSSC, I also was in talks with, with Congress and, and congress is the umbrella for the academic societies and the association and, and so. One of the documents that emerged during my presidency had to do on equity, diversity, inclusion, and decolonization, and it was called igniting change.
And um, and so there was a committee of allies and Indigenous and non-Indigenous scholars that came together to create this a hundred plus page document. And again, that was another pathway document in it also are examples of what universities can do to demonstrate that they are embracing EDI and decolonization.
And at the same time, um, there was a charter that universities can sign demonstrating their commitment to EDI and decolonization. And ultimately reconciliation. So there were very staying and engaging discussions and dialogue that were happening during that time. And, and so there's universities that are at different places and spaces.
There are some universities that are just beginning deep seated change processes and other universities are, are well along that pathway. So. You know, there are strategies that are, that are guiding, um, those processes and, and you know, there's, there are hires, uh, Indigenous executive, Indigenous faculty, and there are also not only recruitment processes for Indigenous students, but retention.
So, and that's the other bit is, you know, you could bring students in, you can bring Indigenous scholars in. Um, but what are the changes made to ensure retention and of, of Indigenous students over time? And one thing that's been learned is that Indigenous higher education institutions are still doing better in, in student retention and program completion than mainstream universities.
Caitlin Kealey: That doesn't sound surprising to me for some reason, given that, you know, an Indigenous institution is built for an Indigenous person to feel comfortable and at home and learning in the way that they want to learn versus the way that mainstream education is sort of.
I mean, it's always struggled. It's, it can't be one size fits all.
Jacqueline Ottmann: Yes, I, I agree. And we're in this, this time of what Dr. Gregory Kday had talked about and encouraged us to do years ago, and that is to think outside the box, live within the circle. So Indigenous philosophies really. Embrace and encourage that particular concept and, you know, to be adaptive.
And universities are very traditional organizations and, and they lean into, uh, centuries old tradition. But our, our world is changing and rapidly changing, so we have to be responsive to that change. Right. So, and it seems like because of technology. Our world is getting smaller and our interconnectivity is, is more rapid and you know, it connects us real time to different parts of the world.
So, so universities again, have to embrace and be a part, a part of that change. So it'll be interesting to see how, how we evolve. And change over time, and it will require us to think outside the box and live within the circle.
Caitlin Kealey: It's like the perfect segue into the question. We're 10 years out. It's obviously the 10 year anniversary.
It is June, 2025, so we are 10 years post the calls to action release. Where do you think we're gonna be in 10 more?
Jacqueline Ottmann: This is another question that I've been asked over time and when I was thinking, thinking of this question, I went back to, uh, 2018 PowerPoint, and so that's what I'm gonna read for you, if that's okay?
Caitlin Kealey:Sure sounds interesting.
Jacqueline Ottmann: It, it really is because I, I think you know my answer wouldn't. Really change, um, from 2018. And actually, I, I wrote this, these, uh, eight points, I think it was more like 2016. So it is, uh, there are fairly, fairly old, but, but still very, very relevant. And the first. The first thing is that Indigenous peoples, as Canada's first people, will be recognized in all content ways of being and doing and accepted.
And so I'll read that again. Indigenous peoples as Canada's first peoples will be recognized in our our ways of being,and knowing and doing will be accepted.
The second point is the stories that are told will be vastly different 10 years from now and within them will be embedded possibility, hope, and strength.
Uh, because what we've heard over time is very much a deficit oriented story of Indigenous peoples, and so we're saying that Canadians and our Indigenous youth, our Indigenous communities, will be, will be sharing a different narrative. And the third point is Indigenous knowledges will live in programming, curricula, strategies, and practices.
So there'll be, you know, all of this will be weaved in, uh, there wouldn't be that advocacy anymore by Indigenous scholars or leaders. Uh, to have that, to have authentic Indigenous content, uh, available for, for all of our students. And Indigenous leadership will see will be secured in governance structures that's happening, but that will be continuously increasing over time.
Role models for everyone will be evident and commonplace at all levels. Learning and relationships will be richer because Indigenous methodologies, because of Indigenous methodologies and pedagogies. And why? Because right now we are still, we are still defending ourselves in some spaces and we're asked, you know, why do we need to do this?
Why do we have to have mandatory courses that focus on Indigenous peoples, our histories, our. Our literature, our practices. So why will be replaced with when and now what? And our children will anticipate the university experience and look forward to being agents of of change. And so our children are. Uh, first Nation children, Indigenous children, and, and our universities will be places, uh, transformation and great influence and, and for us First Nation, university of Canada will be known as the epicenter of indigenization because my definition of, of Indigenized, or my definition of EDI.
Is indigenization, decolonization and reconciliation is that indigenization needs to be led and should be led by Indigenous peoples. Like who better to know, uh, Indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing and lived experiences than Indigenous people. So indigenization needs to be led by Indigenous peoples and the way that I see Our Indigenous philosophies and our teachings, I, I see them as healing forces.
Um, because when you, when you consider all of our philosophies, they, they speak to interconnectedness, right? An example of that is a concept about my relations. And that speaks to the relationship, interconnectedness of all humanity in our, our relationship to all creation.
And so that's, that's healing, right? And decolonization is, uh, more of a challenging force. It, and that's a collective responsibility. And we are hinging, demeaning, and, and divisive policies. And legislation and structures, right? So that's a collective responsibility, and both of those indigenization and decolonization lead to deeper forms of reconciliation.
I, again, part of, part of the vision that I hope we're stepping into is, is that relationality between indigenization and decolonization and reconciliation.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, and that's the thing that often gets lost is that it's not just uh, it's not just for Indigenous people to reconcile. In fact, they have nothing to reconcile for.
It's us and the non-Indigenous folks who are guests here. Right. Thank you so much for that list. I think it's wonderful and super aspirational. I hope we're there in 10 years. That would be amazing.
Jacqueline Ottmann: I hope so too.
Caitlin Kealey: Great. Well, thanks for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Jacqueline Ottmann:Thank you for the invitation.
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Caitlin Kealey: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us.
For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at emdashagency.ca and follow us on your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by Megana Ramaswami and me, Caitlin Kealey, and it's produced by Elio Peterson. This podcast is a project of Emdash, the small agency focused on big impact helping progressives be heard.