A conversation with Kristy Kirkup, journalist covering Indigenous affairs, about what it actually takes to report responsibly on reconciliation; and what's lost when newsrooms don't have the time to do it right.
Note: this episode discusses suicide, trauma, and sexual abuse.
In this episode of Ampersand, our CEO and host Caitlin Kealey sits down with Kristy Kirkup, reporter at the Globe and Mail, to discuss how a decade of covering the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has shaped her approach to trauma-informed reporting, the media's responsibility to elevate Indigenous voices, and what progress on reconciliation looks like 10 years after the TRC's findings.
Kristy traces that approach back to specific people and stories: years of relationship-building with sources like Senator Yvonne Boyer, journalist Duncan McCue's caution against being a "story taker," and the case of Devon Freeman, a First Nations teenager whose death in an Ontario group home led to a rare inquest only after Kristy's reporting and his family's advocacy. She and Caitlin also talk about the toll that shrinking newsroom resources take on this kind of reporting, the throughline of Murray Sinclair's mentorship in Kristy's career, and where she thinks reconciliation might stand another 10 years from now.
This season of Ampersand is dedicated to the 10th anniversary of the TRC and explores its lasting impacts. Through conversations with Survivors, scholars, and advocates, this season reflects on the progress made since the TRC’s final report and Calls to Action, while also addressing the challenges that remain.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email media@emdashagency.ca with any questions.
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Caitlin: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast helping good people be heard and comms people be better.
Welcome to the podcast. It's super nice to have you on and see your face. We always ask the same icebreaker question at the beginning. Mostly we're trying to date you or age you, but can you share a memory from your first computer or early days on the interwebs?
Kristy: So I have a vivid memory of when I was a kid living in Brandon, Manitoba, and my brother Kyle and I were trying to get onto the internet, which seemed like obviously this really exciting thing. But it was dial-up, so I remember sitting at one of those like old school like white computers with the keyboard, and I was excited to put some of my skills to use from a typing class that I was taking at school.
And I remember just again, this does make me sound like I'm a person of a certain vintage, but I remember like the sound of the dial-up and AOL coming on the screen. And yeah, it was like quite a big deal to even get onto the internet, let alone, I don't know, have it evolve into what it is today.
So yes, that's my... I guess it would be, that would be late '90s.
Caitlin: Yeah. I haven't- AOL was that Messenger?
Kristy: Yes.
Caitlin: Okay. I grew up in Newfoundland. We probably had AOL, but I don't think I used it. I used ICQ, which was my favourite with the little "Uh-oh!" But I think I'm older than you, so maybe that's out of your...
We'll date each other here.
Kristy: Yeah.
Caitlin: You and I met through the TRC. My first memory of you and I was the time we went to the Canadian Tire Centre, or whatever it was called at the time, with the chief justice in a cab, and the three of us sat in the back of the cab. Do you remember that?
Kristy: I'm like remembering, and I had forgotten about that, but I'm trying to remember it as you're describing it.
So we were in a cab?
Caitlin: Yeah, for some reason we took a taxi together to a WE Day, and it was like the first time I'd ever heard of WE Day. I don't know how it all happened, but that's- ... what the chief justice was like. We all just did what he said. '
Kristy: Cause Murray had an idea and, yeah... yes.
Caitlin: Yeah. 'Cause I remember being surprised, "Oh, we're like getting in a cab with a reporter? That's weird."
Kristy: Who let her in the car?"
Caitlin: so like we can talk about lots of things, but I do wanna start with, what do you think the role of the media has played in shaping public understanding around the TRC and the calls to action, which is sort of when we met, was around the coverage that you were doing of that important time, which is now a long, long time ago of 10 years.
Kristy: Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to have the chat about it and to also reflect on it. In some ways, Caitlin, I don't know. Again, I'm gonna move away from trying to sound like an old person here, but yeah, it doesn't feel like it's been a decade in many ways. Like, I remember that time, not like it was yesterday, but I remember it.
It was just such a key moment, and so I remember it vividly, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And I think as I look back on the release of the initial report, like before the final report was released later that year, that was such a significant moment, for a lot of reasons.
But if I look at it just from kind of a media perspective, that's when there was so much national media attention. And I remember speaking to Murray Sinclair actually before the formal release of the findings and reflecting, or, I guess, allowing for him to have an opportunity to reflect on what the experience was like.
Obviously, he didn't really talk about the key findings from the TRC during the course of that discussion, but just like the human aspect, the emotional weight of it, what it was like. You know, the commission working on this, in such a huge way for six years, and what this meant for the country.
And I guess as I look back, I think, okay, it's been a decade now, and the TRC commissioners always talked about how this was going to take- I'm paraphrasing here; this is not one of Murray's quotes, but, talked about this being something that would take generations.
And I guess as I look back on the coverage of that moment, because this is what happens, right? There's a hook, and I mean that we're, as journalists, we're trained to be like, "Okay, there's this moment." It's like, okay, the report is being released, and we're gonna report on those findings.
And then there might have been other moments where the commissioners were talking about the pace of progress or lack thereof and some of their concerns. And those would be those moments of subsequent coverage. I guess the point I'm trying to make is the longer that we are from when the report was released, the more I wonder, and I think there's concern, I think for me about how there's, a danger of it seeming like it's fading into the background and that, somehow like momentum in terms of just like the media coverage, is just not there.
And I, again, I get in a way, again, there isn't like a specific hook per se, right? M-maybe the hook is the 10-year anniversary. Again, we're talking about it in that context right now. But just thinking about this in a broad sense, like how do we look at the pace of progress in different, whether it's in justice or health or corrections and keep our minds focused on what the TRC said and then whether institutions are actually following through with the work that they have committed to doing.
Because I think the kind of public danger is that it's all fine and good when a report comes out to say, "We're committed to implementing the findings." And then there's when the rubber meets the road of, okay, well, we actually need to do this, and this is hard and difficult. And again, it's not gonna be something that happens overnight.
And, yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at 10 years on.
Caitlin: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting conversation in terms of, like, the role that media plays in any kind of, you know, pivotal moment in a country's history. There's a specific section of the calls to action for journalism.
I'm curious if you think that any of those things have been achieved or moved, or is anyone taking kind of ownership over helping move them forward?
Kristy: Yeah, I think that's a good question. Again, I don't know if I wanna speak to other organizations and internally how they're going about things.
What I would say, in a positive way, is that I... The Globe and Mail has a partnership with Carleton University where there are specifically two racialized students who get an opportunity to come into the newsroom and to work for three months, and they come in and do a number of stories as if they are staff reporters.
And I'm so impressed by the reporters that are coming in, and this is a commentary, by the way, on I think Carleton really prioritizing, emphasizing for their students about, again, the need to amplify indigenous voices in coverage. Or a student came in, during our recent- she just recently wrapped up the three-month stint with us- but one of the first pitches that she had was about, so Ontario had made an announcement about making changes to bail, and it wasn't the same-day story that she was pitching.
It was, "Okay, we should do a story about how these proposed changes could have an impact on indigenous women who are over-represented in, you know, in the system." and those are those moments where I think, the kind of the training at the level of universities matters, educating the next kind of wave of journalists that are coming into newsrooms, because it's beyond there being like the organizational focus, if you will.
I think it's so important that, at the level of individual journalists and Canadians writ large, that we all reflect on. And this is something, again, that the commission talked about, which was, like, we all have a role to play in this. And yeah, getting just something that came to mind when you asked that question of just, getting to see those students come in and want to bring that to the level of their coverage.
And I guess my hope as a journalist who has covered these issues for a long time is that this is a road that is not walked alone. And I think this is actually something that Marie Wilson said during a conversation that I had with her at some point, where she took issue with the idea of there essentially being an indigenous affairs reporter and within organizations having one person who is responsible for writing about these types of issues, that it needs to be something that is taken on by reporters across the board.
Again, whether you're covering justice, whether you're covering health, whether you're covering corrections, that the intergenerational trauma and those ripple effects that live on and the accountability for institutions, that this is something that all reporters need to have a lens towards in their reporting, and this can't solely rest on the shoulders of one individual reporter.
And so I guess 10 years on, I think, I'll say in a very positive way, I think that The Globe has put a big emphasis on elevating, representing these types of stories in our coverage, and that's not to pump my tires or the organization. I'm just saying I see that firsthand.
I remember walking into Bob Fife's office and telling him about a First Nations teenager who had died by suicide while he was in a group home in Ontario, and his body was not found for seven months. And we later learned that his body had been discovered by another child at the group home.
And I went into Fife's office, and I said, like I can't stop thinking about this story. It's so important. We need to go big on this. What the heck happened? We need to do this." And all of a sudden, he just was like, "Kristy, drop everything. I just want you to focus on this.
Go to Hamilton. You're gonna go with a photographer. You're gonna go, you're gonna talk to as many people as you possibly can on trying to tell the story of what happened to Devon Freeman." And just being able to work, and that's what I mean about, again, these are these moments where it's, yes, it is important for the journalist to be able to have the idea or to have a lens towards these types of stories, but you also need the backing of people in places of authority.
So in this case, Bob really did put his, professional weight behind supporting the idea that I had, and also getting the support of people higher up in the company and saying, "Just go, and we're gonna give you the time and the resources to do this story and to do it well," and then to elevate it to put it on the front page of the newspaper.
And again, not pumping our tires, there were other reporters who covered this terrible story about Devon Freeman and what happened to him, and essentially a number of systemic failures which were later described during the course of a rare discretionary inquest that was called in Ontario after our story and some of the other stories that came out.
Because it is not automatic that there's an inquest when a child dies in care in Ontario, and you can imagine the overrepresentation of Indigenous kids in the system. And so that would be an example, again, of the organization putting its weight behind this kind of coverage. Sorry, this is a long-winded answer, but I think these are those moments that enshrine what I'm talking about. It's important for the reporter, it's important for their bosses, it's important for the overall organization to be placing a high emphasis on time and resources to do this kind of work, because it's also not something that, you know, it's not quick-turnaround journalism, and that is increasingly difficult as media organizations really collapse onto themselves.
Organizations are shrinking. They have fewer resources. And so I feel really privileged to be at an organization like The Globe where I do have the ability to dig in on a story like that, and so I'm mindful of that, too.
Caitlin: So that leads me to a question of, would The Globe have covered this example 10 years ago prior to the TRC, or do you think the TRC played a role in impacting Canadian journalism so that you got that chance?
Kristy: I think The Globe was committed, and has been for some time. The Globe had done considerable reporting around missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, for example.
And LGBTQS+ people as well. And, I think that, again, David Walmsley, our editor-in-chief, had put a great emphasis on prioritizing that particular story, for example. I do think what the TRC perhaps afforded was that level of, again, that overarching message, and again, there were specific calls to action for reporters.
So it was like this, yes, the, the overarching message- like this is everyone's responsibility and the media needs to play a role in this, and this is what reconciliation is about, and it's also about putting your money where your mouth is in terms of, again, the coverage, right?
And so that's, I think, the measure for media organizations, the measure, if you will, of progress is in many regards, it's available in plain sight, and it's when people put time and resources behind covering... I just wanna give a, a bit of a shout-out to Global News recently was recognized by the Canadian Journalism Foundation for work that they did.
Again, it involved Indigenous kids in the child welfare system. And one of their tremendously talented, investigative journalists, Carolyn Jarvis, amongst other journalists, was responsible for this work. And again, in a speech that she made at the CJF Awards because they were recognized for their coverage, but she talked about the importance of this kind of work, but also the investment that is required in order to be able to do it.
And again, that whole idea of this not being a same-day news story, that you need to be able to have the time and ability to dig in. And so yeah, I think that what the TRC, you know, calls to action did was maybe really emphasize for mainstream media outlets that this is a key part of our job, and that we have a tremendous role and responsibility.
And even, in the story that I mentioned about Devon Freeman, this isn't about, again, pumping the tires of The Globe, but I'm always mindful, Caitlin, that we do have power and influence in media. And when we put a story about a teenager who died by suicide and was left for seven months and no one found him on the front page of The Globe, and essentially the underbelly of that story is how the heck did this happen?
And then we point out that Ontario does not automatically launch inquests into these types of situations that happen in care, but that the family and the First Nation was pushing for it; then all of a sudden Ontario announced a rare discretionary inquest into Devon's death. That is never going to make what happened to Devon right.
There were so many systemic failures, and the level of trauma that his family has endured is enormous. And so I wanna make it clear that does not in any way, shape, or form remove what happened to Devon's family. But if they're having to push for things like a rare discretionary inquest, which is something that they wanted, then when an organization puts their weight behind a story like that, and there is a decision-making process, right?
It's, okay, this story rises to the level of being on the front page of the paper. And so I think that sometimes I don't know, maybe this sounds weird, Caitlin, but I do, I reflect on that a lot. I think, what am I gonna do with the power, that I have at my fingertips as a member of a mainstream media organization, and how can I be mindful of, bringing these stories to the forefront, not only in my coverage, but to work with other super talented journalists within the organization that I work in that have also, again, placed, a high degree of importance on trying to shine a light on what I really see as, I've always seen the reporting on these issues as, reporting on human rights abuses.
And when we put our weight behind something and a government, the Ontario Coroner's Office makes an announcement, I don't think those two things are divorced from one another. I do think that, maybe I sound super cheesy here, but I do think that m- maybe that's what keeps me in journalism, frankly, is it ends up, it...
That's what I see as public service journalism.
Caitlin: Yeah. It's the role of journalists to- yeah... to hold power to account, right? And that's the reason that we need journalism for a healthy democracy and a society that works for everyone. I have a two, two-part question, and I would remember from journalism school that you're not supposed to ask that, but I'm gonna do it anyways.
It's- one, you keep alluding to these issues are not same-day stories, so I'm curious what makes them different. And then can you speak a bit to- and they, I'm putting these together 'cause I think they might be related- some of the challenges. What are your insights on some of the challenges that journalists face when they report?
And I'm talking about non-Indigenous reporters mostly here. The challenges that you face when reporting on reconciliation or Indigenous issues.
Kristy: Yeah, no, I think, by the way, I think both of those things are related, so the, the two-part question is, it totally makes-
Caitlin: I get passing marks from the reporter.
Kristy: I just, I think, we talked about the fact that newsrooms are increasingly strained, and I, again, I feel a little weird sometimes talking about being able to have time and space in order to be able to do the work that I am able to do because, again, I work at an organization that, you know, the...
I think The Globe and, again, we're not immune to obviously the forces of journalism today in the context of, again, the interweb as we've been talking about, or artificial intelligence and other things that are completely upending the, once again, the way that our industry operates, and the business model, if you will.
But I think that, yeah, it's... This type of journalism, if what we're really talking about here, if we're thinking about it as covering human rights abuses, that's not something that you just sit down at your desk and bang out a few words and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna move on to the next thing."
That's work that requires time. It requires trust building. That's one of the biggest things that I would say about just covering this beat for a really long time and something that has been really emphasized to me in the course of my conversations with people. I remember sitting down with Yvonne Boyer, who is an indigenous, senator, who also was, again, quite close to Murray Sinclair, and the first time that I met her, we sat at a Colony Pizza in a corner booth, and we just sat and we just had a discussion about, um...
It was a similar experience with Murray, where we sat down, and we had lunch as well, and it was like the beginning of years-long conversations about, "Okay, this is the kind of work that I'm interested in. How can I go about this in an appropriate way? What are some of, you know, what are some of your concerns about coverage that you see?
What do you think that journalists need to do better? How can I take that on so I'm not asking you to do the work for me?" Again, how can I put my money where my mouth is in terms of to build that trust? And I remember Senator Boyer saying, “This is all about relationships.”
This work is about relationships. And so I think sometimes where it wasn't necessarily always the way for me. I worked at Canadian Press prior to coming to The Globe six years ago, which is a daily wire service. And again, I will commend my boss at the time, Heather Schofield, who had done extensive reporting on this particular file and on social issues, more generally speaking.
And again, it was Heather, and the work that she had put in, the relationships that she had built over the years, working with me as a, I was in my late 20s at the time. Again, I'm not in my late 20s today. And, and actually she was my boss at the time
It was my first day on the job at Canadian Press when the TRC released its report. No pressure, first day on the job.
Caitlin: I didn't know that.
Kristy: Yeah.
Caitlin: It was your first day?
Kristy: Mm-hmm.
Caitlin: Wow. That's a big day.
Kristy: It was a really big day. But I knew Heather because we got to know each other because she and I were both covering the beat at the same time.
And I think that's really what led her to bring me onto her team. Anyway, so yeah. So working with Heather, I remember very distinctly where Heather and I had a conversation, and again, this was something that was really brought to her in terms of the relationships that she had built, where a number of prominent indigenous voices were speaking out about concerns about sexual abuse in communities and how this was, as they described it, essentially an open secret.
And that this was again connected to the legacy of residential schools; that this is a very difficult thing, obviously, to discuss it, in any context. But they were really saying that this needed to be a key part of our coverage. And I remember feeling like, okay, how are we gonna go about doing this?
Again, at a wire service, right? And so I was having to do the stories, the daily news stories. Okay, there's something happening on Parliament Hill, and I'd be going up with a little camera, and I'd be writing stories and shooting video and, being a Jill of all trades, filing daily stories.
And then I was, again, in conjunction with Heather, and another reporter in Toronto, named Cheryl Ublacker, we were working on like a multi-part series about this issue. And again, I think in many ways trying to speak to some of, I guess as a, especially as a non-indigenous reporter, I think I really tried to think about going about the work in a way where, for example, again, people that I knew from covering the beat.
But talking to Natan Obed, Perry Bellegarde, like as a first kind of initial step, like to see what the leaders of national indigenous organizations would say about this issue. And then, as the work progressed, it did involve talking, talking to victims, which was incredibly difficult work.
Many people were in British Columbia that I never met in person. I never got to look them in the eye and, almost have that, those things that are unsaid, right? About, I see you, or I'm listening. And so it was, it was a huge lift to do that type of work.
And again, I'm not making it about me when we're talking about someone's trauma. It just was; there were really long, difficult interviews. This is, again, I guess to answer your question, Caitlin, like this is the kind of work that needs time. It requires, like, it requires time and trust. And so it's not just, "Okay, go out and do that story and talk to people who have experienced tremendous trauma."
And to also be so mindful as well, something Cindy Blackstock said to me, and I will always remember this in terms of reporting, about some of the, these types of issues, it's thinking about being mindful of where, and this would be in the lens of trauma-informed reporting, being mindful of where a person is at in their own healing journey and whether they, like kind of this idea of consent, right?
Whether they would consent to having their story shared on such a wide magnitude and some of the impacts of that, right? And needing to, it's just being mindful about making sure that people are at a place where they fully know, to the extent that you can describe it, what they are signing up for.
And that, ideally, that person again, has the self-determination, the agency to be able to say, "This is where I'm at in my journey, and this is actually something that is..." I've heard that from people that I've interviewed. They've said, "This is actually part of my healing journey, to be able to tell my story, to be able to feel heard, to be able to have it elevated at the level of being, being told nationally."
But you can't just do that work overnight, and you certainly have to be mindful of the people that you're putting in that position, and making sure that they're going to be okay after the fact, right? To operate under this principle of trying not to do harm.
And it's really hard. It's really hard and stressful. Again, not about me. But yeah, it's the kind of thing that I remember, going for runs at the time and just my stomach being in absolute knots about, before a story would be going out and, trying to walk a person through what, what we would be allowing them the time to prepare emotionally for a story.
And then that feeling of, okay, have they read it yet? And then wanting to hear from them, but not wanting to put pressure on them because you wanna give them the time to be able to take it all in and have that experience. And wanting to make sure that you haven't inadvertently messed something up or, if you've included a small detail, making sure that everything is right, that it is respectful.
It's, yeah, it's not the kind of journalism that you can do in two hours in an afternoon. It's years and years and years of trust building; I always, would sometimes be in knots about, also, being a non-Indigenous reporter and not wanting to be, as Duncan McCue would describe, a story taker.
And, I remember actually Duncan, on a couple of occasions, talking to me about some of the work, specifically about the sexual abuse series that I just mentioned, and him saying some really kind things about the way that we went about our coverage. And it's not about the validation; it's just, again, it's about wanting to be responsible, and to do this work in an appropriate way.
And yeah, I think about that, and I just, I do think newsroom leaders like Heather were really mindful of what it took to do that kind of work. And, again, people like Bob, when I was doing the Devon Freeman story, the same would apply there, for sure. And yeah, it's, so I worry about, as newsrooms feel the pinch and as they shrink, and that there is less time and there's more urgency to do stories because they want the product quickly at a number of organizations.
And so what does this mean for this kind of coverage? And I, if I'm being totally honest, if you're shrinking newsrooms and giving people less time to dig in, I think there's one consequence of that, and that will be coverage that lacks that depth and context.
Yeah. And so I worry about that.
Caitlin: Yeah. Your empathy is why you're good at your job, right? And the stress that you're causing yourself internally. There's a lot of similarities, I think, between the work that we do in communications and these issues, and that you do in journalism. And I think you're right, that cuts are gonna be felt in the worst places, and especially in a government where, obviously, reconciliation is taking a backseat to development and it feels like we've gone backwards in terms of decision-making in the country right now.
Last question that we ask everybody as well: We're 10 years out from the TRC, where do you think we'll be in another 10? Hopefully in a good place.
Kristy: Yeah, I think, I guess as I was reflecting on this question, it's okay, I think it will come down to whether or not, again, there is that momentum.
But I do think, unfortunately, I do think that it often does require pressure in order to see institutions- that I'm talking broadly speaking; I'm not just talking about the federal government, and again, the TRC's calls to action are not just about the feds; they're about governments across the board and different institutions.
But I do think that institutions are often- and I'm sorry, this is a wide-sweeping generalization, but change is difficult, and it is hard to look inside and to make changes that feel uncomfortable. And I guess, as I answer this question, I'm thinking about, again, with Senator Boyer, one of the things that she's been very vocal about is concerns about forced sterilization of indigenous, women who go into healthcare settings to give birth.
And this has also been the subject of legal action in different parts of the country, and feel as though they are being pressured by doctors to have their fallopian tubes tied, or cut and burned when they go in to give birth. And, for example, the Canadian Medical Association has, in the last year, issued an apology to indigenous patients
If we talk about organizations just on a broad level, using its power and influence to try and elevate this story, if you will, about the need for there to be changes at the level, like kind of reconciliation within healthcare institutions. And one of the things that Senator Boyer has been pushing for is a change in the criminal code, and this was not a position that she took lightly.
She originally was not in favour of such a move. But she does think that it will be necessary in order for this to stop because her office has been inundated with calls over the years about this particular issue, which again, is now the subject of work by Survivor Circle.
Yeah, where are we gonna be? I think, not to overstate the level of importance with media, but I do, and that's the tension, Caitlin, I guess to answer the question is reporters, all of us, not just an Indigenous affairs reporter, we are all responsible for looking at these types of issues and also having a specific lens to the accountability piece.
And I think the level of change will depend on the extent to which organizations are willing to put in the time and the work. And I do. I think there has been progress in 10 years. I definitely see a change in, having covered this for as long as I have.
There's certainly progress, but I think that people like the late Murray Sinclair would say this is not happening fast enough. And so I think I try and imagine what he would say, Caitlin, a lot of the time, frankly, and I think that, I think he would... I don't know.
I feel like he would have, he had a cautious answer about a lot of things, which was why whenever he was ready to do an interview, Caitlin, I always knew he had something, like he was gonna, he was gonna lay it down because he was deliberate about how he used his voice. But I feel like he might say something about, like, the level of progress will depend on the extent to which people are committed to doing the hard work.
And thanks for, in many ways being here to do the hard work on a number of issues that I highlighted today, including on forced sterilization and other issues which I know that, you've been working on for, you've been working on this file for a long time as well, and I'm grateful to have the relationship that we do.
Yeah ... it's all about relationships.
Caitlin: And I think it was- we can put that at his feet. He introduced us, and he made sure that we worked together, and that was his superpower, I think, was connecting, and he was ultimately such a relationship builder. And I worry that we're, his voice, I know he didn't wanna be the only voice, and we're definitely seeing, I think less stories because his voice is gone, which is a concern I think for the longer-term question that I just asked you
Kristy: Yeah, and I think it's interesting though because when I went to see him at the end of his life when, again, when he opened up, what he was dealing with in the way of his health and some of his final reflections, if you will, and, Caitlin, this is like a peak Murray Sinclair story.
He called, I'm at the Winnipeg Airport, and I'm going to see him at his care home the next day to do what I thought would be like a long sit-down interview, and he's "Oh, Christie, I'm doing this thing with Wab tomorrow. Oh, like the premier Wab, I'm doing this thing at the convention center, and it's part of a justice summit, and I'm gonna be giving a speech."
And again, I would have never told him like, I was just thinking, Murray, it, I didn't realize that you were..." Like you know, I had a conversation with him where he was talking about not being well, and then Wab had essentially asked him to come and to do this speech.
And being in the room that day was quite something because, I think that you could tell that Murray really saw Wab Kinew as kind of being part of that next generation of people who are going to be moving, like ushering these issues forward. And obviously their relationship dated back to when Wab was a baby.
But yeah, I think there's an indigenous, premier who again has a very, I would say, he has a high national profile, and I think people in, whether it's at the political level or elsewhere, that I think, my observation is that I think there's an effort by individuals like Kinew to try and continue to keep pushing these issues forward.
So I guess we'll see. I don't know. I try not to absorb how old I'm gonna be in a decade, but I just thought of it, Caitlin, so, uh-
Caitlin: We can do another podcast in 10 years ...
Kristy: When I'm almost 50, we can talk again.
Caitlin: I won't tell you how old I will be in 10 years... because I don't wanna think about it either.
Thanks so much for joining and sharing; I appreciate you and all the work that you do.
Kristy: Thank you so much. Thanks again for the opportunity. I really appreciate it
Caitlin: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us. For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at emdashagency.ca and follow us on your favourite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by me, Caitlin Kealey, and it's produced by Elio Peterson.
This podcast is a project of Emdash, the small agency focused on big impact, helping progressives be heard.