Ready to take action to advance reconciliation at your organization? Here’s what you need to know.
It's time to move beyond reconciliation in theory — to reconciliation in action. Now what does that look like?
In this episode of Ampersand, we are joined by the wonderfully brilliant Hillory Tenute, CEO of The Lodge and a Senior Associate at Emdash. Hillory speaks to common misconceptions and errors in the approach to reconciliation and reciprocity with Indigenous communities. Through a deep dive into historical contexts, current challenges, and practical strategies, Hillory helps listeners to reshape understanding, foster genuine allyship, and guide organizations towards actions that truly support Indigenous sovereignty, rights, and well-being.
This episode was recorded live as part of our Upskill With Emdash series.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email media@emdashagency.ca with any questions.
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Caitlin Kealey: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast helping good people be heard and comms people be better. I'm Caitlin Kealey, the CEO of Emdash. This is our second season, and we're very excited for you to join us.
Megana Ramaswami: And I'm Megana Ramaswami, Senior Strategist at EEmdash.
Caitlin Kealey: So this is a special episode for us, because it was recorded live, but more importantly I got the pleasure of sitting down with Hillory Tenute, the CEO of Lodge Consulting and a Senior Associate here at Emdash
Megana Ramaswami: And I think it's no surprise, we are all huge Hillory fans. We got to work really closely together when they were the Executive Director at Indigenous Youth Roots, formerly known as Canadian Roots Exchange.
Caitlin Kealey: Hillory and I go back a long, long time, and Hillory, time and time again, has taught me many things about myself and about working within Reconciliation, and they're always there to support me, and I just wanted to thank them for that as we kick into this episode.
Megana Ramaswami: That sounds like the nicest relationship, especially working relationship ever. So I'm really excited to know what you guys talked about at the event.
Caitlin Kealey: The theme of the session was practical reconciliation, which is something we get asked time and time again, how can I help?
How do I do reconciliation? So we wanted to focus on some of the common issues that we see when collaborating with Indigenous communities as non-Indigenous organizations and individuals. And we wanted to really give some practical examples of how folks can improve and do the work.
Megana Ramaswami: That is such a big topic.
And I know so many organizations are wrestling with it and trying to learn more. So let's get into it.
Caitlin Kealey: Hi, Internet. Um, I'm Caitlin Keeley. I'm the CEO of Emdash. It's really nice to be here. It's exciting to see people in flesh and real life. I don't feel like I leave the suburbs very often anymore. Um, with me today is Hillory Tenute, who is my favorite est. It's true. We've known each other a very long time, and it's very exciting that she has joined as an associate with our team.
Um, we have had a long relationship that started in a gym. Yeah, we used to work out together. And then it's progressed to a long standing relationship, working together and working through all these things. You want to do a little intro?
Hillory Tenute: Sure. Aanii Boozhoo, Aapti Beebom N’gigikwe, Gi Chi’noodinkwe, Hillory ndizhinikaaz . Neeyaashiinigmiing ndoonjibaa .
Odawa dodem, Nigig dodem. So, hi everyone. My name is Hillory. Um, I've been very blessed to have been given two ceremonial names. My first name is Hillory. Uh, which means soaring in big wind women and though I'm from the Chippewas of the Nawash part of the Saginaw Ojibway Nation Territory, I was actually born in Treaty 7 Territory and the story is that my mom was like fully pregnant and like laboring and um, walked herself to the Lethbridge Hospital during the Chinook winds while she was having me.
So Soaring In Big WindPenguin Woman was the name that was given to me, which also really means that I am just really loud and you can't shut me up, which is also, which is also true.Um, and, um, So, um, my other name given to me is Aapti Beebom N’gigikwe, which means Midwinter Otter Woman.
And though my family, we have relation to Thunderbird Clan, we are also Otter Clan. Um, and I am also tiny and cute. So, that's, uh, that's a little bit about me. Um, I am the former Executive Director of a National Indigenous Youth Organization. I have been doing advocacy work, um, for Indigenous peoples for, I think for as long as I can remember, my mom who is my greatest teacher and mentor, um, you know, had me speaking about our family's experience in residential schooling since I was in grade three when Ontario mandated that we had to do, like, grade three speaking contests.
Um, and so it's been a big part of me to be able to be very open and transparent about, um, a shared history that we have in this country. Other than that, I am a beater, a dog mom, a partner, and, and I am also the president and CEO of an all Indigenous women and non-binary two spirit folk consulting firm called The Lodge.
Caitlin Kealey: Which we will talk about at length today because we are in the works of partnering with them. And Doing reconciliation. I'm not saying it. Reconciliation? No. I'm not saying it. I hate it. But we're in the process of figuring out what the partnership looks like between us. So we're very excited and it's really exciting to have Hillory on our team.
I have I've been waiting to work with Hillory as not a client partner, like in a partnership instead of just as, as your provider of things, but we have worked with Hillory for years. Um, I'm so happy to have you anyways. We'll finish the love fest. Yeah. Happy with everything. Yeah. Um, so just in case if you have questions, just put your hand up.
I will repeat them for the folks at home. Uh, we'll do a little bit of a back and forth, and then, you know, we can kind of move it into a conversation, including the people, uh, watching. Um, so, as most of you likely know, this is something that Emdash takes very seriously. We've been doing it since we, well, for most of the time that we've been an organization.
But really, truly, I sort of opened my eyes to all of this during the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Um, It's not easy work, but it's important work and it's work that I take very, very, very, uh, professionally and personally, uh, as being very important and core to who I am at this point. Um, this is basically a long conversation about how you can make mistakes and it's okay if you're trying and there's ways to do it well and ways to do it in the right way.
So I think maybe we can talk a bit about, well, let's start with. a question and then I feel like we're just going to go straight into just having a chat, but we'll start with the first question, which is how can organizations move beyond surface level engagement, uh, to deep collaboration with Indigenous communities, which is something I know you care deeply and wholeheartedly about.
Yeah,
Hillory Tenute: um, I mean, that's a fantastic question and I get it quite often. It's always so interesting to me and the way I'll come about this like entire conversation is providing as much nuance as possible which not everyone will fully comprehend just in the sense of like I have a lived experience and so I'll do my best to communicate it as best I can.
Um, I also really want to preface that like I'm also like a white passing Indigenous person and therefore I am able to access levers of power differently than say my cousins or even my brothers and now my nephews, you know? So I just really, I think that's always important to really ensure that we're being very open about our positionality.
Um, that being said, in terms of like real engagement, um, so often than not, what I see is people almost being too afraid to take that leap to make really good relationship. Um, and that's the core foundation for so many Indigenous philosophies is our relationship to each other. Our first relationship is to the land.
Um, and a relationship to community and more broadly. And so really trying to break down, like, what is a relationship? And so often than not, the way we operate in more of like the settler state is largely primary on, uh, exchange, right? Um, relationship is typically an exchange. Um, and so often than not, we miss that one piece where it's like, no, we're just human beings.
We're just trying to do what's right. We are all going to make mistakes. Right. I mean, that's why you've heard this before pencil have erasers, but at the end of the day, it's trying to get to a level of understanding a shared history that we all commonly take place in and after and are actively participants in whether you're dismantling it or not.
Um, and I think that's like one of the key pieces, just having a bit of those going back to some of our fundamental teaching Um, leaning into that discomfort around that you may potentially make a mistake, but you're going to learn from that mistake. And I think so often in my experience, the questions I usually get as a consultant or as a former executive director were ones where it was like, I feel like that's almost Googleable or like, I feel like, you know, maybe we're overthinking a relationship to begin with.
So, um, I guess like an example I'll give too, and it's just like, which again, helps with these nuances. especially what I find in what we now call Canada. Um, so I'm married to a non Indigenous person. Um, and I will remind him of that all the time. No, I'm kidding. Uh, he's here now. He's probably like, Oh no, where is she going with this?
Um, when we were getting married, I really wanted to ensure that we had a very, uh, traditional ceremony that was really embedded in Anishinaabe teachings. Uh, and I wanted all of them, uh, men and, you know, women to wear ribbon shirts. And I love my in-laws and, um, my brother in-law at the time, you know, it was like, are you sure we're allowed to do that?
And I was like, yeah, he's like, well, well, we like offend you. And I was like, no, I'm not, I'm not going to set you up for failure, Kat. Like, I love you. And so, but it's like, to me, like, I wasn't upset about that. It was very earnest. And I felt like that was a really great example of just being like, a little bit apprehensive for wanting to really engage and which comes back to a lot of questions around appropriation versus appreciation, which we can talk about later.
Um, I was going to say that's a, that's the whole thing. Yeah. You can have a separate, uh, a whole thing, but it just, it really is that space around just go to the powwows, you know, when we have powwows go to them where it is okay to wear the amazing beadwork that, you know, we are able to create and the art by the art, do those things, like.
And I think so often we're just so scared of, um, the bigger cancel culture that does exist. And often I find, um, that really deters people from wanting to make those real relationships because they're so afraid of saying the wrong thing. It's
Caitlin Kealey: interesting because A lot of the time I hear, like, I don't want to do the emotional, like, I don't want to have to do the emotional labor, um, because there's so much want for reconciliation right now and organizations are trying to figure out, so I don't know if you have the answer because it may not be an easy answer, but how do you do it in a way that you're not putting the work, one of the national Indigenous organizations that we work for, they're in constant demand.
Everybody wants to work with them. Um, And they're like, no, we're doing our priorities. And if your priority and our priority match, great. But how, like, so I guess maybe I'm answering the question. Figure out what they want and see how you can help versus trying to insert yourself and say, Look, we've put this bursary together and now we need you to find the people.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah, happens all the time. Um, I often, um, I mean, I feel like those are two different questions and answers at the same time. Happy to do it. Um, you know, to respond to the piece around, I think relationships can also be foundational upon like co development and what co development looks like. I know right now what we see a lot in our federal departments is this real big push for co development in which I will say, having worked on Call to Action 66, part of the TRC for the last four years, um, it was something we were trying to steward in that department.
Crown Indigenous Relations CIRNAC was around this concept of co-development. There isn't a framework for it, but what it really allowed for was exactly what you're alluding to, is this flexibility to be able to allow your Indigenous partnerships to really lead and for you to take note and support.
All right. And so much of that, and I can use like a present day, like a real life example, is working within organizations, companies, that policies are so incredibly westernized because of finances, for example, that it really prevents Indigenous people from actually doing the work. So I don't want to use a deficit model when describing Indigenous peoples and our experiences.
What I mean by that is, yes, there is significant challenges in our communities, you know, I could go on and name about the number of communities that are without, you know, proper running water and clean water, and then we have housing crisis and high rates of suicide, like, et cetera, you name it. There's also a little, a lot of really great in our communities as well.
And I feel like that's really what we're trying to battle as much as we can, is delivering a response to the emergency, but also being able to support. The really long, beautiful history of resilience, um, that is happening. And so when you're working in partnership, you have to understand it's two different worlds that are coming together.
And so often I find that non Indigenous partnerships are rarely ready to make those adjustments, but those are the adjustments that need to be made. And that's how the system is going to work. I'm not saying you need to throw out all your policies and your financial controllers and all those things.
Like, but there needs to be some flexibility to understand how do we, A, deliver funds like a bursary, for example, B, what are the reporting requirements? You talked about it as well. Indigenous people were engaged to death. I am, we were talking about this this morning and I was like, I haven't had to apply for a job in 10 plus years.
And that's just because I am so in high demand. But also, a lot of Indigenous people are, there's lots of work out there, but we have to make sure that it's for the right reasons of what we're signing up for, because of the emotional labor. See, I came all the way back. Yeah, there we go.
Caitlin Kealey: Just even as you're talking, I'm giggling in my head because we have, we have two bursaries, one at Carleton, uh, and one at, uh, Algonquin that we've endowed, but they have to bring us the Indigenous students.
Yeah, it's a paid internship. So it's not a terrible arrangement, but like, yeah, I'm just like, oh, I did that. Yeah. Um, so that leads perfectly into my next question, which is around I know one of your Other favorite topics about humility and
Hillory Tenute: How I thought you’d say real housewives.
Caitlin Kealey: or Beyonce.
Hillory Tenute: Okay, or Beyonce.
Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah Um, no. Around making mistakes and Oh, yeah. You know, we make them regularly. It's, we can talk about the specific incident that you're giggling about that happened recently. Um, but I think part of what I've really learned and maybe why we have been relatively successful in this space, I'm super humble, , and she, but like, seriously, like I, I have no problem being like, oh yeah, I, I totally messed up.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: How do I do better next time?
Hillory Tenute: Totally.
Caitlin Kealey: And I think that's part of sh. You know, working in this very, it's, I mean, there's a tension, right? Colonization versus, versus if you want to like, we haven't done good things. We haven't been good people. We haven't been good partners. We haven't been good neighbors.
So there's a tension on like even running a business, which again, we can talk about. I know like most businesses are focused on profit. That's not an Indigenous way. That's not how you are taught to function within a community. Thank you. And so I think there's this constant tension and especially as a business owner.
I mean, I'm a bad business owner. I don't prioritize profit, but I am in a minority, but I still do have to pay my team, right? So there is constantly just this push and pull and how you navigate that is not necessarily easy.
Hillory Tenute: Um, so your question.
Caitlin Kealey: I don't know.
Hillory Tenute: No, I mean, I, I, I feel like I can riff off that as well.
Um, Yeah, we can go like around the pieces around humility is like, even I make mistakes, believe it or not. Um, although never meant that I was like my husband in the room. I'm always right. No, I like we all make mistakes and that's just really how we learn, but there is a really beautiful teaching and it comes from part of what my seven grandfather teachings are and one of them being humility.
And I've really leaned into that, especially when I was an executive director. Um, that I just knew that, you know what, 70 percent of my week is going to go really well and 30 percent is going to be just a bunch of mistakes and that's going to be me responding to those mistakes the following week and, and that's okay.
And it's just so much of this sense of white supremacy has taught us that we need to be perfect and we need to get this right and you can't fail, but it's like, but we have to, like, there's no way that we can really learn from it. And I want to show. other generations that it is okay to be humble, um, and to have that humility piece that, you know, and the courage to lean into making mistakes.
You mentioned as well, too, just around the dichotomies between profit and, um, maybe Indigenous ways of knowing, and there's a really beautiful teaching that has really guided me throughout my life, and it's just that, No one should go without and you only take as much as you need. And the example that I'll give is so for those of you that are in Ottawa, you'll know we're largely surrounded, or we're surrounded, we are on Algonquin territory.
Um, and so you're probably often, uh, hearing like languages like an, uh, Anishinaabemowin. Um, and so the word for thank you is Miigwech. But what I learned from my language teacher, Louise Garreau, is that there actually is no word for thank you. And what had happened was when the settlers came and they were trading with us, Miigwech actually means enough, enough.
So the teaching goes back. No one should go without, and you only take as much as you need. So here we were when you like, just imagine whenever you're given something, you always say, thank you. It's an exchange for something, but imagine a world. where that wasn't the case and that you just knew that you took care of your neighbor and you knew that you took care of the stranger and that's just how you operate it.
It's really difficult to imagine that nowadays, and again, yes, you do need to make a profit in these things, but when I was the ED, I really lived by this teaching and we had to say no to a lot of funding and sometimes that are most difficult times and a lot of times that is the burden that so many Indigenous communities are also put into as well is we need to respond to crisis, but you know what's more important than all of that money?
Our community integrity to each other and ensuring that we're upholding those values and that we're thinking about the next seven generations and the next seven generations and the next seven generations. And sometimes that means saying no, but a lot of times because the way capitalism has been set up, sometimes we don't have that opportunity to actually dive more into our integrity.
So again, when you're working with Indigenous people, just really reflect on that. And it's like, what are some of the pieces that they've had to essentially get rid of, like, and have to sacrifice in order to even have like a substandard of living in most cases, right? So it's just, it's, and there's always going to be this dichotomy.
Um, I always tell him like very honest, like now that I am, you know, as a consultant and doing all this work and I've just been really honest. I'm like, I am, I'm searching for generational wealth. I know a generational debtor, but no, like I want generational wealth for my family, for my nephews. And I don't just mean financially.
I want those boys to live on the land. I want to have a house back home. I want to be able to take care of my parents. when they're, as they're aging, you know, I want to make sure that those boys that their kids are taken care of and so forth and so forth. And it doesn't necessarily have to mean financially, but the world that we operate, that's what I need to target at.
And so I just think that's another piece too. It's like, here I am this, you know, Indigenous person that's living in both worlds, but also understanding that I have to play the game to be able to fix the things back home. And I need to plant those seeds. And I've got a ton of legacy work behind me. I have a thousand ancestors standing behind me right now supporting me to do this work.
And it's just, it's my time to do it. Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: I love you.
Hillory Tenute: I love you too.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, just maybe switching gears a little bit because I will follow Ryan's questions sometimes. Um, one of the things that I find, we talk about a lot is that we need to include Indigenous voices. But then the spaces that I generally function in are not necessarily that welcoming to Indigenous voices.
And I'm just wondering, you know, in this constant want to reconcile and do the reconciliation, we want to build healthy relationships, we want to do the work, how do you I don't know, like, I, again, it's a hard thing to do, and I don't know that we have an easy answer, but, like, how do non Indigenous folks get out of the way, but also create the opportunity?
Hillory Tenute: Oh, I love that question. That's, like, that to me is the answer to so much of it, is actually removing yourselves from it. Um, I, um, okay, can I give the example?
Caitlin Kealey: Okay, so, they already talked about sharing, go ahead.
Hillory Tenute: Okay, yes, um, so, we recently were working on an engagement and partnership together, Emdash and myself and the Lodge.
And, um, I had noticed we were doing some work in community. and had also identified that the engagement piece that has been set up, which is, I would say is significantly my expertise and my passion. I love being in like on the grassroots level, working in community, nothing brings me more joy. Um, and then when you're a national executive director, you're completely removed from that.
So it was just like, I miss this. It was so great. And I really, I have so much love for Emdash and the work that you folks do. But I actually asked, I was looking at the proposal and I was like, this is really interesting. This is some real grassroots level work. Does Emdash have the capacity to be doing this work?
And what we identified was not necessarily no, but maybe this is also something I know you would mention you folks have been talking about for a while is being a non Indigenous firm, so largely dominating in Indigenous spaces and we need to really acknowledge like the power dynamics of that as well, because you know, whether there's, and there is really great intention in your work, it still removes opportunity for other Indigenous people to really grow it.
And that's not an Emdash problem. That's a capitalism problem, right? Like that's just straight up how it's been built. So what I proposed to you was instead of getting like, yes, I was in my feelings for some of it. And I'm entitled to that because I was just like, Also, I was on a drive by myself for like seven hours
I was like, I have no one to talk to but my own thought. And so, I got on the phone with you right away and I was like, this is what I'm thinking. But immediately I said to you, I was like, well, why don't you just send the, you know, the community level work to the Lodge? And we'll do that. Do you need to be in that space?
And that was another teaching of humility, right? Where it goes, So, you know, there is so much of this, um, what term we refer to as like white saviorism that comes in. It's like, no, no, no. We can save the Indigenous people. We know all the solutions for them. And I'm not saying that you were doing that, but it's so easy when you get those referrals for people to come to you and go, well, help us.
Caitlin Kealey: What was my first response to you? Cause you were like, why did you bid on it?
Hillory Tenute: And they're like, we didn't, they came to us.
Caitlin Kealey: And I was like, they just came to us. So we put in a proposal and then I,
Hillory Tenute: and then my question was,
Caitlin Kealey: maybe you shouldn't have. And I'm like, Yeah, we probably shouldn't have. You're right.
Here's the business.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah, and so, but it was a really great opportunity and to me that That is a real form of reconciliation. This is Caitlin and her amazing, phenomenal team now making space for my team to like to thrive. Right. And so the other piece behind that is looking at the additional emotional labor that would have to have gone in if I had stayed in this contract and be like, Oh, here Emdash goes again, you know, and like not saying anything.
And Hillory, maybe 10 years ago, Now, probably like 20 years ago, I would have probably just not said anything because that's the space that we're so used to being. We're so used to being a quiet voice on a set where we should be the subject matter expert and we are. And so, you know, I just thought I'm just going to go for this and I'm going to make.
Look at me, I'm making a business deal. And then it really worked out.
Caitlin Kealey: And Hillory often calls me for my white woman–
Hillory Tenute: Oh, I do all the time.
Caitlin Kealey: –take on things. So it was almost that moment, but just in reverse.
Hillory Tenute: It did call it or just like when it comes to rates. And I was like, okay, so you're a white business woman.
What should I be charging? Like for regular people for it? Cause again, if that thing is like, you don't. Don't know your worth and stuff and that's because the system is like they've been saying –
Caitlin Kealey: It's such an, even as a woman like it can be very… And the Indigenous on top it is uncomfortable to be like well, this is what I think I'm worth hourly Yes, you know But I think I gave you the pep talk about valuing yourself as a like an output and not an hour.
But yeah, that's another conversation. Um, yeah. And I mean, that's like, that's taken us years to learn, right? Like we've been in this for years, 10 years, like it's, it's a slow, like a slow burn and you know, coming to this every day and being like, okay, cool. What, what can I do better next time? Like, you know, And if I can on that, I think that's also a really important piece is that, again, it goes back to that teaching on humility.
Hillory Tenute: But, um, understanding this stuff takes time. And it wasn't until I got, uh, in the last, the last few years, um, and this is where I know I'm going to get emotional about, but like the work that we do, a lot of Indigenous people do, and I can't speak for everyone's experience. I can only speak for mine, Growing up, I just remember my mom always telling me about like, um, the prophecy.
The, uh, fire prophecy of the Anishinaabe people. And just like, you know, there will be these generations that will come back and we'll restore about our traditions, our culture, our languages, and we'll kind of take back what's ours. And I always remember that being like, you know, her being like one day, my girl, it'll be your turn.
Like, this will be your time. Now is our time. And, you know, which is like a lot of pressure to put on someone when you're younger. Um, but that's what Wednesday therapy is for. Um, so we. you know, navigating through that and then having the privilege to work for an Indigenous youth organization and sitting with other teachings.
Uh, if you just stay in the light, creator sorts the rest. And I really believe in that because like creator does have my back and you know, when you're hard apart, when you're doing something right. And you know, when you're hard apart, when you're doing something wrong. And when I worked with the youth and I would try to explain them those things just about like, you know, if you stay in the light creator sorts the rest, like, but I want that to happen now.
And I was like, yes, I know me too. But like it all works itself out. But my mom would say something else to me and she still doesn't. She'll send me these reminders and she's like, don't forget. And this is a very common phrase that I've heard across so many different nations across Turtle Island. But you know, you are the prayers that your ancestors sang about.
Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: I was like, I'm going to get emotional.
Hillory Tenute: And that to me is hope. Like that is like, and I never really understood that until my nephews were born. And now they're the prayers that I sing about is for my nephew. And so what I mean is like, these things take time and it just keeps going and it's very cyclical and like, we don't always get it right.
But there's some, there's such a legacy here and work that has been done for my ancestors and your ancestors. And we're all just trying to figure it out. And it's just, if we continue to plant those seeds and to try and get the right things done, and we're going to make mistakes, I have a lot of hope for this future.
You all showed up here today because you wanted to learn something else about reconciliation. And that gives me a lot of hope. Um, there's a bunch of people who are joining online. And I think that that speaks so much, speaks volumes. Another example I'll give is, Honestly, if this was five years ago, I don't know if I'd be up here doing this.
I don't even know if this would be really a relevant conversation we'd be having. And that's the truth. As an Indigenous person who has been in academia, And, you know, professional, um, like in the corporate world, the government relations, we've always just been an afterthought. And so now to see us as the first thought is really exciting.
And, but also like, we need to strike while the iron is hot. And that's why I'm so grateful for these opportunities as they come along.
Caitlin Kealey: Thanks. Yeah, that's great. Um, do you want to talk a little bit about distinction based? Because I think that's the next thing that's coming, um, in terms of just like, I think people are coming to the table now, but this panindigeneity where like, yeah, y'all the same, which is obviously not true.
So do you have thoughts around how that can be done more carefully? Like Indigenous is such a like Government of Canada word. Not how I would say most Indigenous people think of themselves.
Hillory Tenute: No, right?
Caitlin Kealey: Probably zero.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah, like, I am from the Chippewas from the Anishinaabeg Nation, and like, it's just like, it's so complicated.
Um, but, um, I actually, last night, I had a really good chat with, um, a youth, I'm developing a United Nations Accelerator Program for Indigenous youth, and, uh, we had this conversation actually about Indigenous rights. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, human rights and Crown relations. And it was very interesting and you have like to hear the different perspectives that this one youth was speaking more to around how difficult that is to understand just even that we even be acknowledged as part of like section, you know, 35, but also as part of this bigger concept of Indigenous rights within Canada through say UNDRIP.
I have nothing against UNDRIP, let me just clarify, but that it causes more complications because then we ultimately become, again, beholden to the state and what the state is observing as these particular rights. Um, it's a very complicated subject, but it was just really interesting to have these sort of conversations and it reminds me of panindiginism.
And so what that means is kind of like a blanket catch all, you're all, you're all native, you all have the same ways of doing things and stuff like that, which is not true. a distinctive approach is largely working specifically in Inuit, Métis, and First Nations, but then we also need to break those down that those are also very distinct groups as well.
And so if you're looking at engagement, for example, like a national engagement, I think one of the pieces that I find is the biggest barrier is the lack of funding to be distinctive to really get it right. And so when you're doing things on a national scale, you're almost forced in many hands to be distinctive just to three of these nations or distinctions, as opposed to if you're doing community level engagement, then you could be a little bit more, this community has specific needs and respond to those needs.
But. It can be very difficult to do. The problem is, is the funding to do it is not there. And so you're often stuck between a rock and a hard place to do good engagement, but it's still missing. And so I often, when I was at the AFN for a few years, I always would say, it was the same thing. It's like kind of damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
So it's, yeah, I feel like Indigenous people were always kind of, especially in our relationship with the settler state is we're often in a rock and a hard place.
Caitlin Kealey: That's the subtitle
of the book. Um, are there common misconceptions and mistakes that organizations make, uh, that you could help them address before they get started?
Hillory Tenute: Oh yeah, just google
thing. Yeah, um, I've had so many, oh my god, I get called all the time and again, I would just be like, just google that. Like, again, I come from a different gener, from a different generation my god. So I'm so old for those online or those in the room that you know, I went to this thing uh, in university called a library.
Um, and no, but like truly like it was, um, there wasn't all like the TRC hadn't been produced yet, right? Like there were, there weren't these roadmaps, if you will, to show you on how to do it. And I still so often than not get those messages from folks. Um, and sometimes I don't lie, like honestly, I'm just like, Oh, actually, these are some really great resources.
Check this out. Like, that's fine. Um, I think when that happens the most is usually during June, um, or September, which is like the only two months, I guess, to Canada where Indigenous people really exist, but we're here every day. Um, and that's when I get the most of those questions. And so, a little piece of advice I would throw onto people is, Don't dump this all on your only Indigenous colleague, um, or your only Indigenous friend, but you can ask them and just see, do you have the space to have a conversation about X, Y, and Z?
And I feel like that goes such a long way. Cause I have said no to people. I was like, not today. Come back to me in like a week. And then we can chat about it or yeah, but here's just a few resources to start there. And then we can come back and have a conversation. I think that the biggest misconception is like people are again, so afraid to.
Either, either too afraid to look internally to themselves to see what maybe biases they're carrying or what pieces they're just so unsure of. They're like, well, I don't want to get this wrong, so I'm just going to have to ask the Indigenous person. Or it's a bigger conversation about white supremacy and the systems that are set up is that we are beholden to educating you, right?
And like, those are just things that, um, we're all embedded in because it's a system. Uh, yeah, I think that
answers the question.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, for sure. Um, I remember one time you called me and you were like, I wish organizations would stop doing this? And then you told me a story. I'm not going to mention the organization.
Hillory Tenute: What story was it?
Caitlin Kealey: Uh, they tried to fund you, but wanted to dictate the funds or something.
Hillory Tenute: Oh, yes. I will talk about that one.
Caitlin Kealey: So I was just like, things not to
do.
Hillory Tenute: Yes, that's right. Things not to do. Um, this always goes back to no one should go without and you only take as much as you need. And the same can be said about your integrity to community.
Um, we were offered to be part of, again, as a nonprofit to be part of this wider campaign from a very large corporation that exists in North America. I can't say the name. Um, and they're like, okay, so this is what we're going to do. We have asked our client to decide who is the best nonprofit and they're going to get X amount of dollars based on their vote.
And I like My brain exploded. I was like, what in the hunger games is this? Like, this is insane to me because I'm just like, how can you pin up different organizations against each other as a popularity contest? I talked to you folks and I got really emotional about The amount of emotional, but resilient and just deep spirituality and courage that my ancestors had to put me here on this space today.
And to now have to say that all of that work is worth some sort of popularity vote is like, it was just disgusting. Um, and it just, but it also shocked me too, because it speaks to this larger narrative that there's a scarcity myth. that exists in this country. And so often nonprofits were always pinned up against each other, especially in my experience in the Indigenous field of it all.
And it's really difficult. And even I, you know, we were an organization that was a big fish in a little pond, and even then, like, it was still really difficult to keep the lights on sometimes, right. And just keep the, keep the momentum of this really integral work that we were doing. Um, and I think that's one of the pieces where I was just like, don't pin us up against each other, but why don't you instead decide or even enter a conversation to find out what the needs are of these different organizations and divide up the money that way?
You know, and the response I kind of threw back to them was like, is someone else's life experience and life's work just not as valued as mine because it's not sexy to you??
Caitlin Kealey: Could you see the boardroom conversation where they're like,
this is a great idea.
We got
so much like
good
PR
off of this.
Hillory Tenute: And you know, and like, again, I was with someone from Emdash at the time, Megana, and we, I think we were like, you know, I feel like this person probably was just someone in the room.
They're like, yes, send the female out. And they're like, got it. And then it came back, but it was really interesting. And what it did was I went on LinkedIn and I posted about my response and I didn't name who it was. It was but I got a lot of responses from other Indigenous leaders and non Indigenous leaders as well.
And the same was being said, it's like, no, this work of reconciliation is that of carrying a bundle. And the way I understand my bundle that I've grown up, you know, been able to grown up with and others is you go into ceremony and you hold that bundle with really good intentions. And if relationships are the focal piece for reconciliation.
We need to handle that with the same sacredy that we do with a bundle or going into ceremony, because that's what our relationships are, they're ceremony. And so if you go in, my teachings have always been that you don't go into ceremony with bad intentions. Right. And you know, there was a round dance a couple of weeks ago and my cousin was like, oh, you're coming out.
And I was like, in a really bad mood. I can't remember what it has to something. So I had what life happened or whatever. And I simply had to say like, I, I wouldn't be able to, to her question. Um, I wouldn't be able to, thank you for translating. I wouldn't be, I didn't feel it would be appropriate for me to go to the round dance just because I just knew where my energy was.
And I was just, Better off lying on my couch watching Real Housewives and beading. Like,
Caitlin Kealey: are you watching Beverly Hills or like, are you back at the beginning?
Hillory Tenute: All of them.
Caitlin Kealey: Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sidebar. Not sidebar. Just started watching it.
Hillory Tenute: I have a lot of hobbies. We can talk.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, okay. So apparently this is the last question and then we'll open it up both online and to you fine folks in the room.
Um, given that most of the folks in this room are either educational institutions, uh, not for profits, and I don't know if there's any foundation folks, but for those leaders, a lot of these folks are leaders. How can nonprofits, foundations, et cetera, integrate reconciliation into their core mission and operations?
Hillory Tenute: I really think that one of the first pieces you need to look at is who are you doing this work for and do they want it? That is a really big piece to me because I think, um, similar to like a question you kind of prompted earlier, when a lot of times, I would say majority of times, we have the solution.
We just need the money. And so money, please. Like that sort of it. And there's a lot of really incredible foundations right now that you're starting to see that are starting to remove those barriers, especially around how they deliver funds. So I'm always going to do this because like big up for like MasterCard Foundation’s EleV program because, you know, I'll never forget. We received a 3 million gift and it was, Again, we had another conversation. I'm not going to say who, but it was with another organization who also wanted to give us money. But I really could not in my head. And I make this joke a lot. It was like, I couldn't clean the money and I sat on it for weeks and weeks and weeks, and it was a very precarious moment in our organization where it was like, we very well could have to close our doors for this period of time.
And then if you close your doors, then we stopped doing programming for Indigenous youth. And if we stopped doing programming for Indigenous youth, then our entire mandate and mission is pointless. Like if that's literally what we're supposed to do and we can't do that, then we cease to exist. Right. And not as that weird relationship that exists, but, and I remember going to MasterCard Foundation and I was like, this is the situation.
And they're like, would you just spend the money on whatever you want? And I was like, Oh God, I didn't know you could do that. And it's just been, and that's been something I've been really advocating for. And some of my consulting work and working with other Indigenous, organization because I was given access to levers of power and to people and influence, influential people.
And now I just know like, I can connect you with this person. Let me connect you to that person. And this person needs this and that. This needs this because no one should go without and you only take as much as you need. But because I've been in those spaces, that's my opportunity to give back to community.
But what I am looking for are those relationships that are flexible to be like, here you go. Have at her make magic? Because we know what the magic is that we need in our community.
Caitlin Kealey: I'm
just sitting in everybody's head with their like budget going, Oh my God, that doesn't work like that. So, I mean, it's a reconstruction
of how we function.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah, and it's, it's slowly but surely, right? And I think especially, uh, we're going to see a change in government potentially, right? And the foundations are going to have to step up for the nonprofit sector. And. You know, the only, and so much of, and again, this is just the way the system is set up, and a lot of it can be flexible to a degree, some of it can be multi year funding, but in my experience, a lot of federal, municipal, and provincial funding is very program based, and therefore, you are developing a program so you can get money Which also, I feel, removes the possibility of being self determining to vision for what your organization or what your community needs.
Caitlin Kealey: I mean,
every not for profit, Indigenous or not, has the same. How are we supposed to administer these programs if you can't fund the, the, the base level of the things that we do?
Hillory Tenute: Totally, right?
Caitlin Kealey: That's, I mean, that's been a challenge.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: And I don't know that we want to live in a society where the foundations are now tasked with all social, uh, Programming.
No. And like, just seen responsibility to the, to them instead of the government. Like, I don't think, but I know that if we have a change of government, this might be
a reality.
Hillory Tenute: This is something that, yeah, it's just part of that things that we need to sort of prepare for. And so I guess my call to action for folks would be is just thinking about that.
Where are those pieces around flexibility within your budgets, within your funding scales that you can start thinking of that sort of removes the, um, difficulties and having to over report, uh, especially things like, and I get it, the system set up with like an audit, for example, like, you know, there's, um, I remember one time we had some pretty good funders while at CIRNAC, I will say that, but you know, nothing's perfect.
Um, again, really great intentions in that, but, you know, having to be able to say, yeah, I want to be able to fund. Um, elders to come speak and yeah, uh, you know, and then having, you know, a consultant tell us like Well, what is the service they're providing? It was like, it's not a service. Um, okay, like, you know, but it's like, they're like, my brain can't compute like that's how it goes in this audit statement.
And I'm just like, uh, but that's not what it is. And that's always going to be that challenge. But we were able with a little bit of push to be able to make those changes for us as we saw fit. They're a small thing, but over time, if we keep pushing, they'll become larger pieces. The hard part is the wait and just understanding that it's going to take time to get there.
But I think reconciliation requires people to think, to be a little bit innovative in their approaches.
Caitlin Kealey: And patient.
Hillory Tenute: And patient. Yes.
Caitlin Kealey: Uh, thank you for that.
Hillory Tenute: You're welcome.
Caitlin Kealey: You're brilliant. Uh, now we're going to turn to questions. I don't know if we have any online. Not yet? Okay, well, I will encourage the folks online to ask questions.
Does anybody in the room have a question? I will repeat it for those online. So Allison's asking about Uh, the CRA implications of flowing money to necessary, not necessarily folks that are registered in an official way with the government of Canada. And does that affect the ability to fund these Indigenous organizations and give them flexibility?
And I imagine the answer is yes.
Hillory Tenute: Um, I was gonna, so I'm gonna use two examples when I, you know, using the one from like MasterCard Foundation, but there's also like Gordon Foundation. There's a ton of foundations deliberately working on this. Exactly. It's like how to remove those barriers. Um, this was not my innovation. All credit goes to Alyssa Lutenberger at Indigenous Youth Roots who created the creation funding program.
And it really was to take, to make our organization deal with the red tape so we could fund money to the grassroots as quickly as possible. Huh? Um, I'm not, I'm not a spokesperson for them anymore, but it just was really incredible. And again, innovative thinking around it where almost is like, if CRA isn't going to budge, what can you do internally to be that safeguard?
And I know that seems like a lot more labor and a lot more work, but. Ultimately, at the end of the day, that's sort of where the power lies. And so that was something that we did is like, let us deal with the red tape. Let's get this money out as quick as we can and not have to worry about that. Like we, you know, at the time there were folks that, you know, didn't report back, you know, and stuff like that, but we knew that they used the money.
Can you just tell us that you used the money? Right. Because, and what's so important for this conversation in particular, is that The heart of the reconciliation movement is in the grassroots, like the grassroots movement is doing so much of the work and the national, you know, program, uh, organizations are also doing the work, but the heart of it is really there.
And they're the ones that are most underfunded. And I feel like, you know, just that's where my preferences is like how to get that money back into community as fast as possible. And sometimes it just really means being a little bit of, um, A little bit of a gatekeeper and in a good way and protecting, you know, communities are shielding communities from, say, the bureaucratic BS that we all have to deal with, right?
Like, it's not a good, it's such a colonial system. It's, yeah, it can be very difficult. That's a great question.
Audience Member 1: Yeah, Canada on getting this direction through adjusted. Yeah, it's just very slow going. Um, just. I don't know if I'm going to be able to follow up, but I don't think I'm going to be at all. One thing that had struck me as a way to get around that is the model that, and I believe they've re banned for granted, and I don't know if it will be made, but SHEGO, that entity started by a woman in Toronto, where it was more on the, um, trying to help female businesses get off the ground, women, and trying to address the issues.
Inequity that they, that angel investors and other investors, like women's businesses don't tend to get the injections to get them off the ground. So the concept was radical generosity. So, you, you, you have a 1000 dollars, but you don't get to know or say exactly how that ends up. It's business, and I always thought that that model had potential for these grassroots.
Uh, entities that get it from the idea of direction and control and done well, encouraging people to give, give away that need to know and, and just trust that these folks in these, you know, who have the knowledge and are in the right places are the right thing. It's such an incredible concept.
Hillory Tenute: On the same end too, I do recognize the need for measuring impact as well, right?
Like, I think it's always a good way when you are doing any sort of strategic implementation is to have some sort of scale for what you're going towards and stuff, but so often not, that doesn't always translate. Um, but I mean, we were just talking about this at breakfast too, where I was like, I think that's one of the parts we're so focused on the deliverables in terms of percentages of like folks that have now been employed because of X, Y, and Z, or da, da, da, it's like, but why aren't we, we need to really be talking about like, what are the socio political and cultural impacts that are happening on the ground because of these funds, because I feel like that's an important piece for how we can transfer the system and for funders to really see this is the impact that your dollar is having, um, which can also be kind of an icky feeling to have to do as well, being like, because I've talked to other, a lot of other Indigenous, um, executive directors or people who are in these positions as well.
And it's, it, it does give you that ick factor a lot of the time and just being like, but this is, This is more than just works like this is this legacy. This is soul work. This is our heart. This is our culture. Um, but at the same time, that's just how the system is set up right now. So, maybe there's a way you can do it and still maintain your integrity.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, next question from online. The definition of reconciliation is a difficult one in Indigenous languages. In Inuktitut, for example, it means when two past opponents have come together in the middle and made amends. What about reconciliation with our past? With colonization the reconciliation with the past events that have caused intergenerational trauma, how do we reconcile with that?
Hillory Tenute: That is such a big question. Um, I have a hard time with the word reconciliation on a good day. Um, and largely just in part due to that and being so immersed into the work and what I see what's happening on the ground versus what commitments are being made at the political level. I mean, we'll find out next week is the budget, right?
So we'll see what that means for reconciliation this year. Um, and so it's. What I've, I'm going to go back to that piece around that I was talking about with my nephews and that's the part that just keeps me going is understanding that while I still have a lot of work to do in terms of my own intergenerational trauma.
And again, my experience is different than others and everyone has a different experience, but it's a very common experience to, um, I'm just trying to do what's right. Thanks. to give back to them to make sure that they have a better future. Um, and that's, that's the other part. And like other things like wellness, for example, you know, actually going to therapy and stuff like that.
But I also understand there's a huge gap for that as well. And being able to actually afford those things. But, um, I think that's a real personal journey and reconciliation is for Indigenous people. I think a very personal. I remember like,
Audience Member 1: uh, by our schedule like years ago, and I think we were just helping to video one of our very naive questions.
What does reconciliation mean to you? Put a bunch of youth on camera. They were all like, like, they all hated the work. I was like, oh, like, oh, like,
Hillory Tenute: yeah, but that's real though. Right. And, but it's also. But then I think of, like, what reconcilia reconciliation can look like on the day to day in people's lives.
Um, you know, I think our example, like, I was, like, that's a really good piece of, like, reconciliation. I think, like, just being able to make more space, like, that's a really good part of it. It's just, yeah, it's that patience and that understanding that I think we need to really lean into. That question was deep.
Audience Member 1: We might have time for one more question if somebody in the room has a question.
Hillory Tenute: Yeah, so the question was about regarding policies. So, I was particularly speaking about financial controls and how those can be particularly challenging. I think one of the best ones that I'll always give is, uh, when you're working with like elders, or you're working with youth, for example, because there's such a real challenged relationship between CRA, Indigenous communities, and sometimes the bank.
When we're trying to be reciprocal and we didn't even really talk about that. That's like one of my biggest things, too, is like being reciprocal when you're asking people to do things, pay them to do those things. Like, don't be like, oh, about your key chain. Someone actually offered me that one time.
They're like, let me just follow the use of keychains. It's like, no, nobody wants your keychains. Um, but basically is. A lot of times those internal controls, if you're paying someone that you need, like, their bank information, their ID and all this stuff, what if they don't have that, right? And so that was an internal control that I think that we've seen a lot of adjustments on and really push for is making sure that can happen.
Um, the ability to respond to things in real time. So say, for example, you're given funding and you're working with Indigenous communities to do a particular event that is happening very soon. Having the flexibility within your space to get that money out before the Indigenous people have to attend that event, right?
So, so often we see that programming particularly tailored towards, you know, Indigenous youth or elders. It's, they're paid three to four months down the road, where it's like. No, we need that funding now and a lot of times that's an internal control that you can make and you can also break. Right. I'm not break, but adjust.
And so those are the things that I think, again, it kind of goes back to like finance is such a colonial term to begin with, but there are a lot of really great. I've got some really phenomenal, like progressive thinking finance people. Um, that have really helped adjust policies as, uh, for Indigenous organizations.
So they do exist. Um, but one of the pieces around just being able to move things quickly. I think is really important and making sure that you're compensating people for their time, like, right away. And so, um, if we're working with an elder, or you have a youth panel, paying them that day would be really awesome.
Right? Like, just because there's. We have to really acknowledge that there's a lot of other things in life that happen, uh, even just engaging on getting people's information, just to quickly talk about this one as well, um, recognizing you're taking time out of people's days to speak with you, or sometimes those conversations, sometimes, all the time, those conversations go back to intergenerational impacts, and that is a piece that we're sharing with you, and we should be compensated for that fairly, yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, even for us, we've gone to the North a couple of times. The first time we tried to do e-transfers. Like a immediate but they had to give us. Yeah, exactly. This was an unmitigated disaster because some people couldn't get like, they didn't have a digital bank account or they didn't have any emails. Now we just send our team up with the best way and
Hillory Tenute: I recognize to that from like a financial internal control perspective, that can be kind of scary, like having the risk of carrying all this cash.
But at the same time, though,
Caitlin Kealey: Spread it out between team members so none of them is carrying a
Hillory Tenute: lot. Well, right. And if your purpose is to be working with an Indigenous community, and that's why you have all this cash, then your purpose should be the driver. Like, you got to do whatever you can do to make sure that you're able to achieve that mission.
Otherwise, to me again, it just goes that it's kind of pointless. Like that's, that's reciprocity. Yeah. I
Caitlin Kealey: was gonna say reciprocity goes back to Yeah. People where they're at.
Hillory Tenute: Exactly. Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: One last,
Hillory Tenute: okay.
Audience Member 1: Uh, ING deliverables. What are some measures or impacts that unity community level that have meeting relative to reconciliation?
So you were talking about social impact. Oh my
Hillory Tenute: god, I love that. Um, I really think so. The, uh. I mean,
F report writing, and I get it, you can be really fun with reports and stuff like that, but it's like, I, I come from a background of evaluation as well, and so often I've seen communities like, pour their heart and souls into these evaluation reports that we've done in terms of interviews, and it just sat on a shelf, and it just like, That's so gross.
And it's like, maybe there's a way you could look at deliverables that are also help enhancing the capacity within the community. Um, again, very fortunate to have worked on a three year project in a community on Manitoulin Island. And one of those pieces that we were really trying to focus on during that time was ensuring that the elders that we were meeting with, like all those transcripts, which speaks to the OCAP principles, but like, Stayed within the community because we were asking them stories about their history, and they got to keep those transcripts because I was like, well, I don't like these are for you.
And like, what's so nice when you're gathering in space are in spaces with Indigenous people. I think I told you this example last week. I was in another community. And then, like, part of the meeting was all of us trying to figure out what the word for off reserve was, or distant relative, uh, was in Anishinaabemowin.
And I was like, this is so cool that this is my job right now. But it was like, we just started talking and, you know, it goes rooted back to the language. It was like, oh, I really hope someone was recording that because, like, that's a really important moment right now is for us to be restoring our languages and restoring our culture.
Uh, I just think. Coming up with innovative ways to make deliverables more flexible and to the point where it is for more of the buying in the community and not so much for the funder. I think that's just a way of us like looking at different things and getting people to tell their own stories, but ensuring that they have that data protected by their community and through Indigenous data sovereignty.
Caitlin Kealey: I was going to say it's something I've been hearing a lot about, which
is very
interesting.
Hillory Tenute: And it's been around for a while, which is really interesting. Like, I think I remember first starting hearing about like 10 and 15 years ago. And now it's like, you know, I'm seeing online, like I've been OCAP certified.
And it's like, that's awesome. Like, you know, it is like, it's really good that we're having those conversations in so many different spaces. But then it's upholding OCAP is like the other piece. Right. So anyways.
Caitlin Kealey: So many reports to uphold.
Hillory Tenute: So many reports to uphold. Yeah.
Audience Member 1: Um, I want to thank
you.
for being transparent.
Ah,
Hillory Tenute: miigwech.
Caitlin Kealey: All of your, the labor that it requires. I know it's not easy and I hope people recognize it often that you're doing a lot of, a lot of heavy lifting for everybody and I really appreciate it.
Hillory Tenute: Thanks.
Caitlin Kealey: Thanks everybody.
Hillory Tenute: Thank you everyone. Yeah. Thank you. Chi miigwech.
Caitlin Kealey: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us.
For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at m agency. ca and follow us on your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by Meghana Ramaswamy and me, Caitlin Keeley, and it's produced by Elio Peterson. This podcast is a project of Emdash, the small agency focused on big impact helping progressives be heard.