Ry Moran shares his profound insights on Reconciliation, cultural resurgence, and the importance of truth-telling.
What does the next decade look like for Reconciliation in Canada? From education reform to cultural heritage, this episode cuts to the heart of building respectful relationships.
In this episode of Ampersand, we’re joined by Ry Moran, Canada’s inaugural Associate University Librarian – Reconciliation at the University of Victoria. Ry reflects on the challenges and triumphs of Reconciliation since his time serving with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) ten years ago. He shares his profound insights on Reconciliation, cultural resurgence, and the importance of truth-telling.
This season of Ampersand is dedicated to the 10th anniversary of the TRC and explores its lasting impacts. Through conversations with Survivors, scholars, and advocates, this season reflects on the progress made since the TRC’s final report and Calls to Action, while also addressing the challenges that remain.
This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email media@emdashagency.ca with any questions.
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Caitlin Kealey: Welcome to Ampersand, the podcast, helping good people be heard and comms people be better.
Hey Ry, thanks for joining.
Ry Moran: Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Caitlin Kealey: It's good to see your face. Uh, do you wanna do a quick intro?
Ry Moran: Sure. Uh, my name's Ry Moran. Uh, I am, uh, Métis, red River Metis. I'm living in, uh, lǝk̓ʷəŋən territory, which is on the west side of Canada in what's also known as Victoria.
Uh, I work at the University of Victoria. I've been here for about four and a half years. I'm the Associate University Librarian, Reconciliation. And, uh, have had the really huge honor and privilege of doing a lot of work on Truth and Reconciliation over the last, uh, you know, 15 plus years now.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. Which is how we know each other.
So I'm very happy that you're taking the time, uh, to talk to me today. Um, so we always start with an icebreaker. Uh, it definitely will sort of give us your age, but can you share a memory from your first computer or early days on the internet?
Ry Moran: Hmm. Well, I was thinking about this. Uh, so certainly I'm of the generation where, uh, it was really pre-internet, I guess, and in a way pre-computer.
But one little point in time marker that I'd like to situate technology around is actually relates to the TRC. Uh, when we started with the TRC, um, iPhones were still relatively new, but iPads themselves were not available with cameras in Canada. And if we think about like, just the evolution of tablets and how ingrained in our society and how ubiquitous they've come and actually how handy they are, it's sort of interesting to think about the passage of time and where we were then and where we are now.
Just by virtue of that one little marker, like the presence of tablets. Um, think about what that even does societally, you know?
Caitlin Kealey: A hundred percent. It's, uh, changed everything as it were. Um, so I wanna take a little bit of time, uh, and ask you to reflect on your personal experiences through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which obviously you worked on for, for the commission's length.
Um, what stands out as sort of one of the most impactful moments?
Ry Moran: Yeah, there, there's so many different impactful moments, of course, as you go along that journey. Um, I mean, I think in some ways some of the things that are not often talked about but stand out very clearly in my mind, uh, relate to the size of the team and actually in many ways how small the team was. Um, there were a number of meetings that we were, that I was in, uh, at the TRC where, you know, it would be the commissioners and, and the limited number of, you know, senior staff that we had at the TRC around our board table at, in the Winnipeg offices wrestling with really, really, really hard issues like complex, um, strategic operational issues, things that were huge forks in the road for the TRC.
That ultimately, um, related directly back to whether or not the TRC would succeed or fail in its mandate. And in many of those cases, you could just feel the weight of the decisions that were being made in the room and, and the, the, the, the heaviness of responsibility that was especially on the shoulders of the commissioners, uh, as we sort of tackled some of these really, really, um, tough challenges.
And they were made particularly weighty by the incredible importance of the work that everybody so clearly understood. And when it actually comes down to, you know, marrying that sort of weight of responsibility within the service to survivors, to Indigenous peoples and, and really to the country of the whole, then some of the most important elements, um, unquestioningly were just how clearly, how eloquently, how forcefully, how strong, uh, the survivors spoke throughout all of the hearings and all of the work that the TRC did and how much, how much courage and determination they had in standing up in front of audiences or, or being behind closed doors in sharing their truths.
Um, sometimes, uh, begging, sometimes pleading, oftentimes demanding that Canadians pay attention and listen to what they were saying because this truth that was surfaced through through the TRC really matters and it continues to matter just as much today as it did at the moment that, uh, it was shared.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, and I think, you know, those stories were hard to share and so important to share.
And I think to a certain extent, you know, it has moved the country forward, but you know, you look at the calls to action and they're not, I mean, I don't think anyone assumed they'd be done in 10 years, but, you know, are there specific areas that you think should be addressed more immediately? Like what, what's urgent?
Ry Moran: Hmm. Well, I think, you know, the, the, the theory, you know, on human rights type stuff and, and human rights calls is that. They're all important. They're all interrelated and they're all interdependent. So as we sort of move forward through time, um, there's really, um, all of the calls to action are important at the same time.
Now, realistically, can they all be implemented at the same time? Not necessarily. Uh, the commission itself, um, placed very clear importance on child welfare right at the outset of the calls to action. That's why the very first calls to action related to keeping kids safe and improving lives and outcomes for children today as the first and most important calls to action.
And on that, we have seen some movement. You know, we, we've seen new legislation, of course, we've seen nations start to draw down, um, um, authority, um, on a self-determining and self-governing basis to, to care for their kids. Um, we've seen more robust implementation of Jordan's principle and there's also a ton more work, uh, to do there, um, as we go.
I think also on education, you know, education, there has been a lot of movement. Um, there is, you know, we always have to remember that when we started at TRC, I mean 2010, this is 15 years ago. Um, residential schools were not in any curricula really formally across the country. And since that point, these are, you know, core learning outcomes and, and core curricular activities.
So that is positive. We are seeing, you know, kids graduating from, from high school now for many, many years, graduating, at least with understanding and knowledge that residential schools, um, existed. They've heard survivor stories. They're much more grounded in the, um, some of the challenges that Indigenous peoples have been forced to endure.
Um, and remembering broadly too, I mean, just as a little refresher for folks that are watching this, I mean, the TRC’s Calls to Action are really divided into two chunks in many ways. There's the things that need to be done immediately to address the harm and to prevent further harm from occurring. And then there's the big ticket Reconciliation stuff that comes in the latter half of the Calls to Action.
Sitting right there in the middle, of course, are very important sort of hinge, um, Calls to Action calls, uh, such as the National Council for Reconciliation. Now, we've just seen that start to emerge. There's an initial board that has been appointed, um, you know, we're 10 years out really, that that board should have been in place tout suite.
Frankly, the, you know, the, the former Prime Minister had committed to seeing that council, uh, achieved as one of the core promises that were made a year out from the release of the TRC’s Calls to Action. Right beside that, there's other important calls, you know, calls that, um, you know, uh, uh, former chair, uh, Murray Sinclair talked about, um, the importance of a new royal proclamation or a covenant on Reconciliation.
Things that were intended to fundamentally reset the relationship, and we haven't really seen that much happen on those.
Um, and I, I suppose lastly, the good news though, you know, perhaps is I'm here at the University of Victoria, um, largely in response to the TRC’s Calls to Action, but thanks to the huge amount of work that's been done by scholars like Val Napoleon and John Burrows here.
Um, we have, you know, uh, the National Center for Indigenous Laws here at the University of Victoria, and we're seeing graduates now leaving, um, the University of Victoria with a joint degree in, you know, common law and, and Canadian law and Indigenous legal orders. And the importance of that really cannot be understated.
Um, it is, uh, a vital and critical importance that we see, um, Indigenous legal orders become part of the act of fabric of law, um, and, uh, legal precedents in, in this country. And that is a really critical tool in the toolkit that's gonna help, um, you know, the country as a whole be able to better grapple with a number of the, um, the challenges that it's gonna continue to face in the number of years and decades to come, frankly.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, for sure. I mean. You know, our favorite Murray Sinclair-iban always said, like, education is key. So I think, you know, your first point around education, uh, has always resonated, especially with me because of, you know, my parents are both academics. Mm-hmm. Um, we've come a long way, but obviously there's still a long way to go.
Speaking of which, in recent years we've seen this rising resurgence or rise of, like, denialism about residential schools? Uh, it's gross. It's obviously totally inappropriate, but, uh, are there strategies that you would recommend from a communications and truth telling point of view in terms of how to push, how folks should be pushing back?
Ry Moran: Yeah, uh, definitely. Um, so first of all, I think. Uh, you know, folks are, are tuning in, uh, and thinking about how to stay on guard against Denialists. Um, the movement really is first of all, um, be very, very cautious in, um, in, and engage critically in your sources and, and fact check your sources. Um, understand what you're reading and where it's coming from.
Because one of the things that the denialist or anti-truth or diminishment movement that is, um, unfolding in the country is that they're very good at cloaking themselves and hiding themselves and confusing readers, actually. Um, for example, there is a website that's been created, um, I forget the exact name of it off the top of my head, but it's like, you know, Indian Residential Schools history.
Uh, you know, and, and at first glance it, it might appear that it is an authoritative site on residential schools history, but in fact it is very chock full with content that is intentionally aimed at, you know, exercising those kind of, you know, the D’s of denialism: so, deflect and diminishment and, uh, and, um, denial of course.
And, and what that requires of readers that are trying to get more information on residential schools is to just engage cautiously and to engage critically in the information that you are being presented with. And right now, I mean. Sometimes that's happening and, and other times it's not.
And I think one of the most, I mean, there's the people, uh, out there that are naturally going to gravitate towards sort of denialist or diminishment ideals because they don't want to believe that what has happened in Canada is indeed as bad as it is. Um, the, the belief that Canada has been a bastion for human rights, um, is a very deeply entrenched value.
It's a very deeply entrenched ideal that we have held as a country. And disrupting that, of course, comes with a great deal of discomfort. And, you know, some people can handle that discomfort better than others, I think. And, uh, that, that desire to cling on to the idea that everything's fine and dandy in Canada and it wasn't that bad is a very, very powerful narrative.
And that's. The type of narrative that a lot of the Denialist movement, um, feeds right into. So, you know, in summary, check your sources. Be conscious, be aware of where the information is coming from and what goal, uh, that information has.
Ultimately, at the end of the day, we should be able to measure, um, this broad work of Truth and Reconciliation against, you know, some very lofty and important ideals. Does this advance human rights in Canada? Does this a, um, advance greater, uh, uh, the achievement of respectful relationships between Indigenous peoples and non-Indigenous peoples? Does this advance, you know, a more peaceful and harmonious society? You know, these are the big, big, big goals.
This is the hard work that we're trying to work through as a, as a country. Unfortunately, um, I think a lot of the information that's out there is from this sort of denialist movement is, is holding us back from being able to really lean heavily into the human rights and respectful relationships conversation 'cause it's fundamentally based on the denial of somebody else's truth. And when you deny somebody else's truth, that's a pretty, um, that's a pretty grim starting point for respectful relationships.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah, and I mean. We spend lots of time at Emdash on the internet and, you know, uh, one of the things that, you know, our clients and partners have been worried about, um, we did a survey last summer and they were talking about how the rise of misinformation and disinformation on the internet is just—
Ry Moran: Mm-hmm.
Caitlin Kealey: —it's outta control, so, you know. It kind of speaks to the importance of when you do comms and when you do this work in the world, like making sure that your organization's reputation and relationships are, like, solid. I mean, you know, you used to work with the National Center for Truth and Reconciliation and so did we, and you know, we're long time supporters and like the work that they're doing to push back is important, but they're also, you know, that is the source that people should be going to, right?
Like, that's the archives of the TRC.
Ry Moran: That's right, is like, you know, there, there are authoritative records that are extremely well researched, that are reliable and are authentic. So if you wanna learn about residential schools for certain, go to the TRC’s work, go to the primary source materials, look at the documents for yourself, understand really what's going on.
Um, read Survivor accounts too, you know. If you wanna know what was happening in the schools, the Survivors are unquestioningly the experts on what was happening in the schools. And thankfully, you know, there has been, uh, a real flourishing of those truths emerging over the last 15, 20 years. And, and we're now fortunate to have some really, um, high quality and, and a lot of different Survivor accounts that, that have been written.
So that's, you know if you're, if you wanna know what the perspectives and experiences of Indigenous people are, which are really the people that we need to be listening to when it comes to residential schools, read the Indigenous sources or read the sources that have made a very, very intentional effort of centering, uh, those experiences and those truths in the material.
Um, materials that start off with the assertion or assumption that somebody's lying and that, you know, we're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes in Canada, um, around, you know, human rights violations is a very, very dubious source. And of course, then it really, uh, when we see that type of content, we really ask, I have to ask ourselves, well, who's gonna benefit from, from this information?
Is it actually going to help propel us towards a more respectful future or not? Is it gonna hold us back? And so much of this, um, is, is holding us back actually, uh, from, from a respectful relationship.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, so one of the things that is near and dear to your heart is music and creative, uh, composition.
You know, First Nations, Inuit Metis, people telling their own stories and publishing and you know, what, writing music, uh, how does that contribute to reconciliation efforts? And have you written the song you told me you were going to write?
Ry Moran: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm heavy on the writing. I'm short on the releasing right now, so that's kind of my problem. I dunno. It's like, it's, it's a little bit of a, it's, it's this odd dance that I've been doing for the last number of years, trying to figure out where, uh, how to recenter my, my music work and my life again.
But lots of writing.
Caitlin Kealey: It's all the hat, it's all the hats that you have to wear.
Ry Moran: Oh, it is. But um, you know what I've been, um, learning about more and what I've been appreciating more are the interrelationships between, um, culture, all manifestations of culture, um, of, and the relationship of that to thriveance, and wellness and to, um, broad, uh, and important and, you know, lofty goals of, of human rights and, and human dignity and the corresponding attacks on culture.
And, and what I mean by all of this is that, you know, if we rewind the clock, um, back to just shy of, you know, uh, 15 years, uh, 10 years ago, uh, early June, we heard, uh, you know, Murray Sinclair-iban, uh, stand up and say, uh, what happened in the residential schools was cultural genocide. And since then, that has been, you know, expanded further by the national inquiry, um, to say that it was genocide and we've since seen all parliamentarians, uh, agree on that fact.
And certainly there's been a ton of evidence, um, to support that. And Canadians are starting to understand that what's happened is, is indeed genocide. But returning to that, to that, to that statement that the TRC made on, on genocide and cultural genocide, where the contemporary literature is right now in, in big human rights thinking, is that, you know, attacks on culture are very much, you know, equal to all other forms of genocide because when you attack culture, what you are doing is trying to destroy the, the very essence of life itself. Things that make life rich. That, uh, the knowledge, the practices, the attributes, the, the, the, the, the. The stuff, the materiality of life that is held and transmitted to future generations.
And, and we know this, um, because, you know, there's really important groups in, in this country, like the, um, uh, Indigenous heritage circle that have said, well, what is cultural heritage? You know, what, what is cultural heritage, uh, from the perspective of Indigenous peoples? And they say, well, cultural heritage itself is, is defined as the, the stuff that gives meaning to life, right?
So when we rewind the clock and we think about the things that were removed through residential schools, we're seeing all of the things that give meaning to life: language, the practice, the style, fashion, um, music, um, uh, governance, you know, laws, legal orders.
Um, those are all the things that give meaning to life. So. So if we know that there was an attempt to destroy, then what's the, what's the response to that? Well, thriveance. Survivance. Um, expression, cultural, cultural celebration, cultural, um, sharing, cultural, you know, again, thriveance like I've already said, and that's where, you know, the arts and culture and language are so critically important.
And food. You know, all of these things that, um, combine to, to make life rich and then make life rich also in a way that really lends itself to sharing and to sharing with others, right? And when we take a big step back, two, we understand that like when it comes to cultural heritage and we look at this either through UNESCO or you know, United Nations principles, or they're from the, through the broad principle of human rights.
We can understand that any attack on any culture really around the world, something that makes, makes cultures less vibrant rather than, you know, bright and multiplicitous, is an attack on humanity itself. So, so our work of achieving respectful relationships and our work of, of making better futures in the society is fundamentally, um, rooted in the resurgence of all aspects of Indigenous culture.
And, and a resurgence in a way that allows others to, to see and to um, learn from and to be part of the celebration of the existence of that culture. So, I dunno, that's like a long and rattling, uh, winding way of just saying that like arts and culture matter, not just because they're awesome, but because they relate to the very essence of what it means to be human.
And what it means to be a peoples. And when we share people's cultures and attributes, and when we do that in ways that allow us to like, learn from one another, um, then we really get to understand the incredible richness and all the gifts that all the peoples of the world bring. And, and it, and that naturally leads us to wanting to protect and preserve diversity.
It leads us to naturally wanting to, uh, ensure that all people's rights are protected, to ensure that all those cultural practices continue to exist through time and, and also be given the freedom to morph and adapt and be all of the rich and vibrant things that cultures actually are. Um, so.
Caitlin Kealey: That was a very thorough answer.
Thank you.
Ry Moran: Very thorough. Like,
Caitlin Kealey: well, do you care about that deeply?
Ry Moran: Yeah. Well, and it's like, how does music relate to that? It just, it's all good.
Caitlin Kealey: Well, and I mean, you know, in any of the things like, I remember the TRC, it was really important that there was cultural aspects in every, everything that was done.
You know, you guys, I think, I think I heard some pretty funny stories about what happened after the story gathering and, you know, with the like, talent shows and like, you know, like a way to find joy and also celebrate, you know, amongst the Survivors and the, and the TRC team. Um, just switching gears a bit, um, I mean, you're at U Vic now and you, before that you were at UManitoba.
Um. What progress have you seen from where you sit in terms of how Indigenous perspectives are being integrated into higher ed and, you know, what gaps, what gaps remain to be sort of sorted out?
Ry Moran: Yeah, so I think, um, there's been a lot of change, uh, and there's still a long ways to go. Like all things, I mean, post-secondary institutions are big systems unto themselves.
Um, they are, um, they are big bureaucracies, you know, so, so there is, uh, I think a very, very clear and undeniable history of excellent work being done, um, at the level of, you know, professors and, and students and, and, and that, and there's exceptional programs that we've seen existing in Canada for really a long time. University of Manitoba, UVic, you know, Trent, I mean, lots of different institutions. I mean, that's just naming just a, a handful just off the top of my head. Um, have done exceptional work, um, over the years. Um, structurally I think, uh, universities are gathering steam or, or, you know, making some important changes.
So certainly when we look holistically at the sector it's gone from being, uh, a rarity for there to be senior Indigenous peoples in, you know, Vice President or Associate Vice President roles to now being more common, if not common. Um, there is still, you know, not uniformity across that, um, across the country.
We're certainly seeing most post-secondary institutions appreciate that they need Indigenous peoples in senior decision making roles. Um, that oftentimes has been centrally first. Um, what's happening, for example, the University of Victoria is, is we're seeing that now rolled out across other faculties as well.
So we're seeing, you know, senior Indigenous peoples put in at, you know, that just beside the sort of the dean level. So at the vice dean level. That's intended to ensure that, you know, our senior, uh, Indigenous leaders aren't just there as an office of one or two trying to, you know, manage or, or, um, uh, address change in an institution that has very, um, deep, deep, long and like concretized roots, you know.
These, these systems are meant to be stable for a reason, and that means that they don't like to change for a reason too, because they're, you know, that's the way they are. So, so, you know that that understanding or that recognition that we, it's not just one or two voices around the table, but an entire structure and system of change.
Of course is, is really important. And that, I think that'll continue to happen at other institutions as well. You know, the other big thing, and I mean it's, it's just the, the, the unfortunate reality of the world that we live in too is, is all of the work that's happening on Indigenous identity inside of post-secondary institutions.
And that's something that, you know, has been a necessary and sort of painful, uh, journey from sort of self-identification to where we are now and. Um, by virtue of some of the, the, the messiness or the, the ugliness even that's happened over the last little while. That is where we see post-secondary institutions now needing to, um, put policies in place to ensure that those that are saying they're Indigenous are indeed Indigenous.
And that if there are set aside positions, uh, for those, um, for those folks that. They're actually meeting the criteria. And that's happening not only at the university level, but also at the level of the tri-council agencies. And this is all a work in progress. You know, it's all, um, sort of being fleshed out, but you know, that, that is a major, um, that's a major, um, responsibility and evolution for post-secondary institutions because ultimately at the end of the day.
All of this is meant to try to move us towards Indigenous peoples having, you know, agency and ownership over, uh, Indigenous affairs within, you know, institutions and, uh, and in so doing, we need to make sure that, you know, the folks that are actually, you know, doing that are actually Indigenous and that's not, uh, you know, a small piece of work, but a very, very important change that's developed, um, largely, uh, just in response to truth, right. The, the truth aspect of reconciliation.
Caitlin Kealey: Yeah. And it's a complex one. Yes. Depending on who you speak to and how you divide. Yeah. All of probably the Canadian government's making of the issue in the first place. So that's maybe not all, but mostly. So, I mean, all of it's very challenging.
Ry Moran: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Caitlin Kealey: Um, so I have one last quick question. Uh. We're 10 years in, what do you think the next 10 will look like?
Ry Moran: Well, I'm not certain to tell you the truth. Um, and the reason for that is I think what I'm going to be watching for in the next, say 12 months is whether or not, you know, our, at least our, our federal government at least, um, takes steps towards substantive ongoing work on reconciliation. You know, we didn't hear much at all about Indigenous peoples or Indigenous matters or topics or reconciliation in this last election cycle.
And you know, the pressures right now that are on Canada to, you know, defend its sovereignty. Interestingly, you know, parallel so closely to the work that Indigenous peoples have been doing to protect their sovereignty. Um. You know, right now, I, I mean, the idea of be it separation in Alberta or ramming pipelines through in defense of the national interest, um, you know, are, are forgetting some very, very fundamental truths: uh, treaties, UDRIP, free prior and informed consent, uh, longstanding relationships.
Um, so, you know, if we, we are a country that has been walking on this sort of complicated lurching path towards, you know, a, a better and a more improved, uh, respectful relationship with Indigenous peoples. And I think, you know, the next little while is going to be a really significant test to how much, you know, reconciliation is actually seen as being a structural imperative rather than just nice words on a page.
And, you know, a few, um, lovely statements because that's always the worry, right? It's always the worry. But, um, when we start thinking about the national interest and, you know, the future of this country, it has to, it has to include Indigenous peoples, uh, because there's only one of two outcomes that can come out of that, either the relationship worsens.
Um, we see again, just the, you know, the use of courts as being the only mechanism to resolve conflicts or, or disputes. Which isn't actually in the best interest of anybody. We're, we're better around tables, you know, working together with the presence of rights, um, being there, or, um, you know, you know, it, it can just really fracture or, or break down or reduce a lot of the, you know, the, some of the goodwill that's been created over the years.
So. I dunno. They, I mean, these are very, very complicated times that we're living in right now. And, and, uh, the, the radar sensor that I'm know attuned to right now is, is just how are Indigenous peoples being centered in the conversation? Um, uh, our national interests, Canada's national interest has to involve Indigenous voices.
Full stop period, you know, just for the structural realities of the Constitution, if nothing else, right. And, and you know, we gotta lean into this, and that's important moving forward.
Caitlin Kealey: Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ampersand. Thanks for joining us. For more comms and design tips, sign up for our newsletter at emdashagency.ca and follow us on your favorite podcasting app so that you don't miss our next episode. Ampersand is hosted by Megan, a Ramas Swami, and me, Caitlin Keeley, and it's produced by Elio Peterson.
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